BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS

Comptroller and Auditor General

The Vice-Chamberlain of the Household reported to the House, That the Address of 20th May, praying that Her Majesty will appoint Amyas Morse to the Office of Comptroller and Auditor General, was presented to Her Majesty, who was graciously pleased to comply with the request.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

NORTHERN IRELAND

The Secretary of State was asked—

Presbyterian Mutual Society

Ann Winterton: What assessment he has made of the effect of the collapse of the Presbyterian Mutual Society on savers in Northern Ireland.

Shaun Woodward: The hon. Lady will know that responsibility for the oversight of the Presbyterian Mutual Society is a matter for the devolved Administration, as registration is devolved to Northern Ireland. None the less, she might wish to know that my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I are taking a close interest in the forthcoming interim report by the administrator.

Ann Winterton: Bearing in mind that the Presbyterian Mutual Society is in administration mainly because of panic withdrawals following the Chancellor's guarantee to the UK banking sector, will the Secretary of State persuade the Chancellor and the Prime Minister that a similar guarantee scheme should be extended to provident and mutual societies? After all, what is good enough for the Dunfermline building society is surely good enough for the Presbyterian Mutual Society.

Shaun Woodward: I absolutely understand the hon. Lady's concern for the 9,500 investors of the PMS, but it is important for her to recognise that there is a significant difference between the status of the PMS and that of the Dunfermline building society, which she has mentioned. It is critical that she understand that the individuals who invested money in the PMS were investors, not savers. She refers to panic withdrawals, but it is also significant to note that no other industrial and provident society has got into similar difficulties. That will not make life easier for the families involved, but I look forward to seeing the administrator's interim report.

Mark Durkan: Does the Secretary of State not recognise that those who put their money into the Presbyterian Mutual Society did so believing that they were savers, rather than investors? That is how they understood the situation. Young families and old people with lifetime investments are now caught up in grievance and distress because of a situation that is not of their making. Will the Secretary of State explain why a variant of the model used to relieve the situation of the Dunfermline building society is not being used by the Treasury in response to the situation of the Presbyterian Mutual Society?

Shaun Woodward: Part of the answer to that is that the PMS is not a building society. Having said that, I believe that it is significant that when the Financial Services Authority looked into the matter, it noted that the PMS was conducting
	"regulated activities without the necessary authorisation or exemption".
	The FSA also states that
	"we remain in touch with the administrator and, if further information comes to light relating to the issues we have investigated, we will look into it."
	This is an important matter, and I say to the hon. Gentleman that we are keeping a close eye on it. We look forward to seeing the report from the FSA and from the administrator as soon as possible.

William McCrea: In October, the Treasury guaranteed that no British customers of Icesave would lose their savings after that Icelandic online bank collapsed. The Prime Minister went on to issue a blanket guarantee that its 300,000 UK customers would get all their money back. Why can he not give the same guarantee to those who have savings with the Presbyterian Mutual Society? Does the Secretary of State not realise the gravity of the situation for many ordinary, decent people in Northern Ireland?

Shaun Woodward: We do recognise the gravity of the situation, which is why the Prime Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I are keeping a close eye on it, and why the Prime Minister has been in correspondence and discussion with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and looks forward to having further discussions with the First Minister later this month. We appreciate the gravity of the situation, but we equally have to recognise that, under the law, those people who put money into the PMS did so not as savers, but as investors, and that the regulation of this body in Northern Ireland is the responsibility of devolved government in Northern Ireland, not of Whitehall. Nevertheless, we do not intend to say simply that because the matter is the responsibility of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, we have no interest in seeing what we might be able to do to help. That is why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister continues to take an active interest in the matter and will engage with the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) and his colleagues about it.

John McFall: Since the Treasury Committee took evidence in Belfast a number of months ago on the banking crisis, I have continually been in contact with many of the distressed savers, as well as with the moderator of the Presbyterian Church, Dr. Donald Patton. I have also had meetings with Lord Myners and I have written to the administrator, Arthur Boyd. There is an issue here about the Financial Services Authority getting in touch. If the Northern Ireland Executive, the Presbyterian Church itself and Her Majesty's Treasury got together, I think that we could get a solution. There is a need for added urgency, and I ask the Secretary of State to take that message back to ensure that we get justice for many of these distressed people.

Shaun Woodward: I welcome my right hon. Friend's intervention, and it is a mark of his interest in these matters that he came and took hearings in Northern Ireland. I know that all hon. Members would want to welcome his work and contribution. As I said, the Prime Minister continues to take an active interest the matter, as does my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, and we will continue to follow it up. There are issues about the regulation of bodies such as the PMS in Northern Ireland and they will need to be addressed. There will be lessons to be learned for the future. For the 9,500 investors, I appreciate that there are real and pressing questions—particularly for those who invested less than £20,000. We all have a duty to do what we can to help them—and that also goes for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

Patrick Cormack: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs is very grateful to the Treasury Committee for the initiative that it has taken? We would have liked to look into the matter, but as the Secretary of State says, it is devolved. Every member of the Committee has received representations that underline the severity of the situation, so will he please take up the suggestion just made by the right hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (John McFall), the Chairman of the Treasury Committee, and convene a meeting of all the interested parties to try to reach a solution?

Shaun Woodward: As always, I welcome the advice of the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, who always has a considered approach to these matters. I am prepared to work to bring people together. Equally, however—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman shares my view—I am very conscious of the fact that if government is devolved, that must be recognised, and we cannot suddenly be seen to be trying to take control of an issue through the back door simply because we are not quite sure whether it is being handled in the way we might have wanted. This is an issue on which I do not think the 9,500 investors will thank Members of this House or of the Assembly for simply saying, "Bureaucracy means that we cannot help." I am prepared to break the bureaucracy, and if that is taken in which it is meant, I am prepared to work with the hon. Gentleman and other colleagues to help those investors.

Andrew MacKinlay: I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said, and he now seems to be warming up and willing to take this on. It does not matter how often he says that the Prime Minister takes an active interest in the matter; the test is whether he is going to do anything with some dispatch. That is what the House wants. It is not a question of devolved administration; the issue has arisen against the backdrop of the economic and banking crisis, which is a matter for the First Lord of the Treasury, the Prime Minister. This House wants him to proceed as if this were happening in Greater London, where 900,000 investors would be kicking up, and everyone would be demanding debates and action this day.

Shaun Woodward: As always, the Churchillian recognition of my hon. Friend is helpful in allowing me to enjoy this a little more; I am tempted to say I am enjoying this, but perhaps I should resist that.
	We have to recognise again that these are not savers; they were investors. As such, they made an investment as risk capital in the form of withdrawable shares and loans. There is an issue about whether or not this should have been regulated; it was registered; it should have been regulated. There is an issue that I continue to want the FSA to look at, but I am not trying to evade our responsibility. If we can find a way to help these people, we should do so. I am prepared to break the bureaucracy to do it, if it is at all possible.

Owen Paterson: It was the Government's guarantee to other banks and the failure of regulation that brought about the collapse of the Presbyterian Mutual. I met the former moderator and the general secretary on Monday, and I was shocked to learn that they had written to the Prime Minister three times since November, but he had sent only one holding reply. I was also surprised to find out that the Secretary of State had not met them. The Prime Minister is the architect of the current financial regulatory system. If his Presbyterian conscience extended to Dunfermline, why will he not apply it to the Presbyterian Mutual?

Shaun Woodward: First, I want to acknowledge that the hon. Gentleman is the most assiduous visitor to Northern Ireland who has ever held the Opposition spokesman's job. He cannot help but be there at least half of every week, and we should acknowledge that. I just wish that he would sometimes learn a bit more while he was there. As I have said to him, the Presbyterian Mutual Society is made up not of savers but of investors. The issue is devolved, and I know he has a problem with that—of course, his party has formed an alliance with the Ulster Unionists in the hope of making some progress nationally—but the fact is that devolution has happened. He must respect, rather than undermine, devolution. The Prime Minister has taken an interest in the matter and met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister on it. We have held discussions, and further meetings will take place. But the hon. Gentleman must respect the fact that devolution does not mean bringing the matter back to Westminster through the back door.

Owen Paterson: Contrast that with the clarity of the right hon. Gentleman's successor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), who said at a public meeting in Ballymena two weeks ago:
	"I am not here to make spending promises. But what I can tell you is that if I was Prime Minister I would take a very good look at whether people are being treated fairly. So I think this is a real case for the Prime Minister to think again".
	So, will the Secretary of State answer directly the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack)? Will the right hon. Gentleman agree to take a delegation representing the Presbyterian Mutual and the savers to see the Prime Minister in the next couple of weeks, to find a solution to protect many innocent people who fear the loss of their life savings?

Shaun Woodward: Once again, we recognise the problem of the 9,500 savers. The hon. Gentleman refers to the leader of his party, the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron)—and I must admit that I know a thing or two about Witney. He did travel to Northern Ireland, and he said to people that he was not there to make spending promises. As my hon. Friends know, that is probably because everywhere he goes he is promising to make 10 per cent. cuts, should we ever see him in government. The people of Northern Ireland should pay careful attention to the words of the hon. Gentleman's leader, because he would be very bad news for them. He does not understand the problems of Northern Ireland or of the Presbyterian Mutual, or that the Presbyterian Mutual is made up of investors not savers. As I have said, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will meet the First Minister and Deputy First Minister again to see what can be done to help such people, not with empty slogans and hollow promises but with real action—and not by doing nothing.

Decommissioning

Angela Watkinson: What assessment he has made of progress in decommissioning of arms by loyalist paramilitary organisations; and if he will make a statement.

Shaun Woodward: I would like to take this opportunity to express the condolences of the whole House to the family of Kevin McDaid, who was murdered last Sunday week, and also to Damian Fleming, who was badly attacked and suffered serious injuries. The Government totally condemn those responsible for those serious crimes. The Independent International Commission on Decommissioning continues to make progress with those paramilitary organisations that have engaged with the decommissioning process.

Angela Watkinson: I thank the Minister for his response, but the Independent Monitoring Commission's assessment of the likelihood of decommissioning by the Ulster Defence Association is that it is difficult to judge what turn events might take and when. Given the qualified position of the Independent Monitoring Commission on judging such matters, what makes the Secretary of State think that any progress will be made within the next 12 weeks?

Shaun Woodward: I am grateful for the interest that the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends take in this matter. We have to rely on the IICD for advice on such matters. Its independence means that we do not know what it is doing and where. I have meetings with it, and it has informed me that it continues to make meaningful progress in dialogue with the organisations concerned, but as I have said, if we can find another route for decommissioning, we should take it, which is why we have. Such a system is not adopted instead of law and order, and it does not allow people to retain their guns indefinitely, but it might be the only way to get them in. The House should be in no doubt: if the IICD tells me in August that it has not made meaningful progress, I am committed to ending the decommissioning process immediately.

Eddie McGrady: I wish to associate myself with the Secretary of State's remarks about the horrendous murder of Kevin McDaid and about Damien Fleming. That really was an horrendous setback for our society in Northern Ireland.
	The Secretary of State informed us in October 2007 that meaningful engagement and negotiation had already taken place with the independent decommissioning body. On 1 April this year, he said that if
	"there has been no meaningful progress"
	in negotiation by the middle of August, he would terminate the decommissioning legislation. Can he tell us what he means by "meaningful progress"? Is it to be interpreted as the handing in of all weaponry by the UDA and associated loyalists by mid-August, and does it mean that there will be no more provocation in regard to the abandonment of the decommissioning legislation?

Shaun Woodward: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the role that he continues to play in helping to deal with the legacy of the past in relation to sectarianism. I acknowledge that in his opening remarks.
	I do not think it is helpful for me to give the House a running commentary on how the IICD is progressing. It has an outstanding track record in achieving decommissioning on the part of paramilitary organisations since its establishment. If the IICD tells me, as Secretary of State, that it is making meaningful progress in dialogue with those organisations, I think that we have a duty for the next 12 weeks to stick with it in good faith.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I am sure the Secretary of State agrees that while decommissioning by loyalist paramilitaries is important, it is equally important for the weapons used last night in west Belfast to shoot a young man to be decommissioned, and for organisations such as the Irish National Liberation Army and other republican splinter groups to be brought into the decommissioning loop. It is important for their weapons to be taken out of society as well.

Shaun Woodward: It is important for all weapons to be taken out of society. It is my view that none of these instruments, whether they be guns or whether they be knives, has any place in a normal, decent, civilised society. We have a duty in the House to ensure that we do everything we can to find every means possible to remove these weapons from the streets and from people's homes. There is no doubt that they contribute to sectarian violence.
	I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has done in this regard. As Father Keaney, the priest who presided over the funeral of Kevin McDaid, said earlier this week, we must all see what we can do to remove
	"the prejudices of the past".
	That is the action that we must take together, and I have no doubt that if we take it and maintain the political momentum in Northern Ireland, right will win and evil will lose.

Jim Devine: I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I associate myself with what my right hon. Friend said about the death of Kevin McDaid, but is my right hon. Friend aware that press reports are suggesting that members of the police force texted loyalist groups to tell them that tricolours were being raised in the community, and is the matter being investigated?

Shaun Woodward: I am aware of those press reports. Indeed, on Saturday evening this week I spoke to the Chief Constable, who had been made aware of the stories. He has investigated the matter, and I am glad to tell my hon. Friend that the Chief Constable can find no evidence whatsoever to support the allegations that were made in the newspaper.
	Let me say again that the best way in which we can deal with sectarian violence is by confronting these issues, which are the legacy of the past. We must uphold law and order, we must be firm in our justice, and we must ensure that we do everything we can to send a clear signal to young and old people that guns have no place in Northern Ireland today.

Alistair Carmichael: Let me associate myself and my party with the Secretary of State's comments about the murder of Kevin McDaid. It was a truly brutal and, indeed, evil act. Does the Secretary of State not accept, however, that its true significance lies in its demonstration that in the minds of those would style themselves loyalist paramilitaries, there has been no movement away from— [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. It is unfair. Hon. Members are speaking about Northern Ireland, which is a very serious matter, and there is a great noise of conversation in the Chamber.

Alistair Carmichael: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
	Does the Secretary of State agree that when de Chastelain reports in August, we do not want to hear about talks and progress? What we want is confirmation that the weapons have been decommissioned and that there will be no more chances after August.

Shaun Woodward: I have made it very clear to the House that there will be no chances after August unless we are told by the IICD that there has been meaningful progress, so there is no question of the period being extended in the absence of that progress, but again I say that decommissioning in relation to sectarianism in Northern Ireland is only a part of the issue. In the words of the chief executive of the Community Relations Council, we must all talk now about the need for a shared, united society, stop the talk of us and them and unite to turn the hatred of the past into a society of cohesion and normality with no guns at all.

Laurence Robertson: I entirely endorse what the Secretary of State said and condemn the cowardly and murderous attacks on Kevin McDaid and Damian Fleming recently. We hear what the Secretary of State has said about the decommissioning of the arms held by the so-called loyalist groups, but I remind him that, on Thursday 5 February, on behalf of Her Majesty's official Opposition, I reluctantly agreed to support the Government in extending the arms decommissioning amnesty for the 12th year on the specific promise that there were moves to start decommissioning within weeks. That has not happened. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that if arms decommissioning has not taken place by the August deadline, he will make a statement in the House immediately?

Shaun Woodward: I again say to the hon. Gentleman that we should remember that the work of the IICD has achieved a transformation of weapons held by paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, not least those weapons held by PIRA. In a succession of instances with regard to decommissioning, that has led to the current state of play. I am grateful for his support this year on that matter, but it will not help the work of the IICD if I make a running commentary on information, including Security Service information. I simply say to him that I believe that it was the right thing to do and I believe that in August he will see the fruits of that labour.

Community Projects (Funding)

Alasdair McDonnell: What recent discussions he has had with representatives of churches and other faith-based organisations which do not apply for funding from the national lottery for religious reasons on alternative sources of funding for their community projects.

Paul Goggins: I have had no such discussions as national lottery matters and the listed places of worship scheme are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I understand that, in addition, the Northern Ireland Departments operate several funding programmes which are open to Northern Ireland churches and other faith-based organisations.

Alasdair McDonnell: Is the Minister aware that churches and faith-based groups have made a valuable contribution to local communities and to wider society in Northern Ireland—a cost-effective contribution, mostly volunteer led? A recent study has shown that 70 or 75 per cent. of volunteer activity around youth groups is led by faith-based groups. Many of those groups have ethical difficulties availing themselves of lottery money. Has he done anything, or can he offer any suggestions? Will he meet those people in an effort to find alternative sources of funding?

Paul Goggins: I am happy to join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the churches in Northern Ireland and faith-based organisations that provide so much by way of community activity, particularly aimed at young people and excluded people. There is a range of funding opportunities for church groups that have a problem with the national lottery. They can apply to different Departments in Northern Ireland. I hope that, with the transfer of money from dormant bank and building society accounts, there will be future opportunities and that faith-based groups will have less of a problem in applying under those schemes.

Sammy Wilson: I knew this question was important, but I did not know that it deserved the acclaim it got from the House earlier.
	Does the Minister recognise that in many communities churches provide the main source of community activity for the elderly, the young and others, and that because of some deeply held beliefs the infrastructure that would normally be funded through the lottery fund cannot be funded? Will he look at ways of ensuring that those areas that require and rely on church facilities are not disadvantaged?

Paul Goggins: I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman. It is true not only in Northern Ireland, but in all our constituencies, that churches and faith-based organisations make a real difference. I acknowledge the problems some churches have in making applications to the national lottery. I say again that the new dormant bank and building society accounts proposal might be a way of getting money to those organisations. They play an important part, but I am sure, too, that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that the £773 million invested in communities in Northern Ireland through the national lottery has also made a huge difference to local communities.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked—

Engagements

Michael Weir: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 3 June.

Gordon Brown: Before listing my engagements, I know that the whole House will join me in expressing our condolences to the families and friends of the seven servicemen who have lost their lives since we last met: Corporal Stephen Bolger of 1st Battalion, the Parachute Regiment; Lance Corporal Robert Richards of the Armoured Support Group, the Royal Marines; Lance Corporal Kieron Hill of 2nd Battalion, the Mercian Regiment; Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett of the Light Dragoons; Fusilier Petero Suesue of 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers; Sapper Jordan Rossi of 38 Engineer Regiment, the Royal Engineers; and the soldier from the 2nd Battalion, the Rifles, who was killed yesterday. These are exceptionally brave men, whose service should not, and will not, ever be forgotten. Recent operations have shown that we will not allow the Taliban to jeopardise the future of a free and democratic Afghanistan, and the whole country should be rightly proud of the sacrifice these men have made.
	I have also to report that we have strong reason to believe that a British citizen, Edwin Dyer, has been murdered by an al-Qaeda cell in Mali. I, as will the whole House, utterly condemn this appalling and barbaric act of terrorism. Our thoughts and condolences are with the family. I have talked to the President of Mali. He knows he will have every support in rooting out al-Qaeda from his country. I want those who use terror against this country and against British citizens to know beyond doubt that they will be hunted down and brought to justice. There will be no hiding place for them, and there will be no safe haven for terrorists who attack our country.
	This morning, I had ministerial meetings with colleagues, and in addition to my duties in the House I shall have further such meetings later today.

Michael Weir: I represent 45 Commando, which has recently returned from a deployment in Afghanistan where, unfortunately, it lost nine men. My colleagues and I would like to associate ourselves with the condolences expressed by the Prime Minister for these brave men who lost their lives in Afghanistan recently, and also for the family of Mr. Dyer.
	Just now, we are seeing the pathetic sight of the Cabinet attempting to reshuffle itself. When will the Prime Minister accept that he has lost all authority and call an election?

Gordon Brown: There is work to be done every day to deal with the recession. If we had taken the advice of the other parties, we would not have taken action to nationalise the banks, and we would not have taken action to deal with the problems that small businesses face and that people face with unemployment. These are the actions that are needed, and this Government are taking such action every day.

Howard Stoate: At last year's Union for the Mediterranean summit, my right hon. Friend gave his backing to concentrated solar power as a means of providing almost limitless clean energy for Europe. Given that more than 170 Members of this House have signed an early-day motion supporting concentrated solar power and the development of a high-voltage, direct-current supergrid, what active steps is my right hon. Friend taking to work with our international partners to make this a reality?

Gordon Brown: This is a serious issue that needs European co-operation for it to happen. Our target is for 15 per cent. of energy consumption to come from renewable sources. We have spent more than £11 million over the last few years to support solar installations, and we will publish the renewable energy strategy, setting out our strategy to meet these renewable targets. We will work with all countries in Europe to develop a renewables strategy.

David Cameron: I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the soldier from 2nd Battalion The Rifles who was killed in Helmand province yesterday. We will also remember Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett, Corporal Stephen Bolger, Lance Corporal Kieron Hill, Lance Corporal Robert Richards, Sapper Jordan Rossi and Fusilier Suesue. All of them have been killed in the past fortnight serving their country—we will not forget their sacrifice and we must care for their families.
	I also join the Prime Minister in sending condolences to the family and friends of Edwin Dyer, who, it is believed, has been brutally murdered by terrorists in Mali. This must be a simply horrific time for his family, and I am sure that everyone in the country is thinking about them. In spite of all the difficulties though, the Prime Minister is right to say that we must never give in to terrorists.
	This morning, the Communities Secretary resigned from the Cabinet. That follows yesterday's announcement that the Children's Minister is standing down, the Minister from the Cabinet Office is leaving and the Home Secretary is resigning. Why does not the Prime Minister accept that his ability to command his Cabinet has simply disappeared?

Gordon Brown: I think the first thing that the whole House would want to do is acknowledge the great work that has been done by both the Home Secretary and the Communities Secretary in the Cabinet. At a time like this, the House should come together to acknowledge contributions that have been made in the public interest. May I also say that under the Home Secretary what we have seen is crime come down, neighbourhood policing introduced, the fight on terrorism stepped up and better relationships between the police and the community? I have to remind the Conservative party that crime doubled under a Conservative Government and policing numbers were cut.

David Cameron: The Prime Minister is in denial. If these people have done such good work, why are they walking away from their jobs? The Communities Secretary's statement does not pay tribute to him or a single one of his policies. Let us be clear about what is happening: the Minister in charge of local government is resigning the day before the local elections. Is not the fact that she has chosen today of all days to go a direct challenge to his authority?

Gordon Brown: I think some people should take a step back and understand what has been happening. The past few weeks have been difficult for every Member in every part of this House. People have to recognise, in the politicking that goes on, that there have been enormous pressures on people and that while the public are angry, there have also been family pressures on Members of this House. That is true of those in all parts of the House, and I think that we have a responsibility to all Members of the House in this. Yes, there are elements of party politics that the right hon. Gentleman would want to raise, but he has to acknowledge that in all parts of the House there are issues that people want to sort out.

David Cameron: I have to say to the Prime Minister that if this was about expenses, the Communities Secretary would have resigned weeks ago. The fact is that she has chosen to resign today.  [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. Do not shout down the Leader of the Opposition.

David Cameron: Yes —[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. Remember that there is a danger of the House being suspended if people continue to shout. That is the danger, and there will be no Prime Minister's Question Time.  [Interruption.] That goes for both sides of the House.

David Cameron: The Prime Minister talks about pressures. I have to say that those pressures on the Communities Secretary and on others in his Cabinet include No. 10 directly briefing against them. The fact is that what we see is a dysfunctional Cabinet and a dysfunctional Government led by a Prime Minister who cannot give a lead. Can he perhaps at least guarantee that there will be no further resignations ahead of his reshuffle?

Gordon Brown: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that for those on both sides of the House the events of the past few weeks have been difficult. It would be unfair for us to pass this Question Time without acknowledging that in each part of the House people have found it difficult with the pressures upon them. I want also to pay tribute to the Communities Secretary for the work that she has done, because she has brought new relationships between local government and central Government with the local government concordat, she has sponsored urban regeneration in shopping centres in our country and she has been active in building better relationships with the Muslim communities. At a time like this, it is the duty of all of us, in all parts of the House, to recognise the contributions that people have made.
	As for what he says about the Government, we have two jobs of work to do. One is to clean up the expenses system. I think that everybody else in the House except him agrees that we have to take action now to clean up that system. The second thing is that we have got to take this country through the recession. The remarkable thing about the Leader of the Opposition is that this is yet another week when there has been not one question on policy.

David Cameron: The Prime Minister must understand that the issue here is his leadership. The failure of the Government on appearance is not as bad as their failure on substance. Let me turn to the issue of the economy and let us take just one key individual, the person responsible for steering us through this recession: the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Prime Minister refuses to talk about him in anything other than the past tense. We know that the Home Secretary is going, we know that the Communities Secretary is going, so can the Prime Minister tell us whether the Chancellor, sitting there in front of us, will still be in his post in a week's time?

Gordon Brown: Once again, that is nothing to do with policy. The right hon. Gentleman is incapable of dealing with the big issues that face this country. Let me say what this Chancellor is achieving. This Chancellor is leading the rest of the world in taking us out of recession. This Chancellor has taken action that the Conservative party has refused to support. What happened when we had to deal with the banks? What would the Conservatives have done? Nothing. What would they have done when we were helping mortgage holders? [Hon. Members: "Nothing."] Nothing. What would they have done when we were helping the unemployed? [Hon. Members: "Nothing."] Nothing. What is their policy? To do nothing. That is not the basis on which to ask for an election.

David Cameron: If the Chancellor is doing such a good job, will the Prime Minister tell us whether he will be there in a week's time?

Gordon Brown: I have said that the Chancellor is doing a very good job, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman would agree with me. The Conservatives are the only party to want an election when they have no policy to deal with the recession. They want an election, but they have no policy to help home owners. They want an election, but they have no policy to help the unemployed. That is a party that talks, talks and talks but has nothing to do with action.

David Cameron: If the Prime Minister is not happy with our policies, why does he not call an election and test them out? The Prime Minister needs to realise how important this is. Why should the British public believe the Chancellor if the Prime Minister does not have confidence in him? Why should international markets have confidence in the Chancellor if the Prime Minister does not have confidence in him? That is why this is so serious. The Prime Minister told us that he had the right team to take the country forward. That team is now deserting him. The Government are collapsing before our eyes. Why does he not take the one act of authority left to him—get down to the palace, ask for a dissolution and call that election?

Gordon Brown: Once again, the right hon. Gentleman proves to the whole country that there is absolutely no substance in anything that he says. We have to clean up the electoral system, and we are doing that. We are cleaning up the expenses system. The second thing that we are doing is cleaning up the economy and ensuring that it comes out of recession. The party opposite has no policies to deal with that. It is words, words and words. We will get on with the action.

Andrew Miller: My right hon. Friend has worked hard, along with the Business Secretary, to bring about a positive solution to the future of Vauxhall. Many of my constituents, of course, are not aware of what has happened behind the scenes. Will my right hon. Friend give them the assurance that the Government will continue with the high level of support that is being offered and will the Government distance themselves from the statements that it is not desirable to rescue the motor industry that have been made by the Liberal Democrats?

Gordon Brown: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has been a great supporter of Ellesmere Port and the car industry there. This is what people in the country are concerned about: the jobs of workers in car factories and in the car supply industry. That is why we have been working with General Motors and the two potential buyers. We are now working with the preferred buyer for General Motors and our determination is to save Vauxhall jobs in this country and to make sure that people have a secure future. We have also, as hon. Members know, introduced a scheme that allows people to sell cars that are more than 10 years old, and now 35,000 people have bought cars as a result of that, so we are doing whatever we can to move the car industry forward. I just have to say to this House that that would not be possible unless we were prepared to put public funds into making that happen; I am afraid that that is rejected by the Opposition.

Nicholas Clegg: I would like to add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence to the families of Fusilier Petero Suesue, Sapper Jordan Rossi, Lance Corporal Robert Richards, Lance Corporal Kieron Hill, Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett, Corporal Stephen Bolger, and the soldier from 2nd Battalion the Rifles who died yesterday. As has been said, they all served with great distinction and courage in Afghanistan. Of course, I would like to support the Prime Minister in his expressions of sympathy and condolence extended to the family and friends of Edwin Dyer.
	We can now see that the Government are in total meltdown. The Prime Minister is thrashing around, fighting for his own political survival, but does he not understand the extreme danger to our democracy when people start feeling that there is simply no one in charge?

Gordon Brown: The dangers are when one does not deal with the problems that are before us. One of the problems is to deal with the expenses system in the House of Commons, and the second is to deal with the problems and challenges of the economy. I thought that the Liberal party would support us in the action that we are taking to help the unemployed, to help home owners, and to help small businesses, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not join the other party in talking only about things other than policy. The country wants us to talk about what we are doing to help it.

Nicholas Clegg: The Prime Minister just does not get it. His Government are paralysed by indecision, crippled by in-fighting, and exhausted after 12 long years. It is a tragedy that exactly at a time when people need help and action, the country does not have a Government; it has a void. Labour is finished. Is it not obvious that the only choice now is between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats?

Gordon Brown: I seem to remember the Liberals saying that at every election that I have ever fought. The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the country needs action, and the action is coming from this Government. If he will listen to what we are doing, I think that he will find it very difficult to oppose the measures that we are taking to help the car industry, to help the banks, to help the unemployed, and to help those people who are home owners. We are the party with the ideas about how to take this country out of recession; neither of the main Opposition parties has anything to offer us.

Andrew Slaughter: Will my right hon. Friend reaffirm the Government's commitment to decent, affordable homes for all? In the past month in west London, the decent homes programme has been described as upgrading the deckchairs on the Titanic, and social housing as an incentive not to improve one's lot through one's own efforts. Will he condemn the Tory politicians who made those comments?

Gordon Brown: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When a Conservative council has cut the decent homes programme, and cut back on the investment in it, one does not need to look into a crystal ball to see what the Conservatives will do; one can see it in the action that they are taking to cut decent homes in a constituency. I support my hon. Friend in taking up the case of the many people in his constituency who are looking for decent homes, and who look to their council to provide them.

Peter Tapsell: May I put it to the Prime Minister that the problem of Members' allowances falls within the remit of Sir Christopher Kelly's committee, and should be left there until it reports? The right hon. Gentleman has hinted that he wishes to gain a reputation as a constitutionalist over the issue, so may I suggest to him that as he is almost uniquely unsuited to play the role of a latter-day Thomas Jefferson, he should in fact look to the existing constitution and do as almost everyone in the country would ask him to do—use that traditional constitution to ask Her Majesty to dissolve this Parliament, so that the country can elect a new one?

Gordon Brown: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's 300-year perspective on these issues. It is right that Sir Christopher Kelly's committee report. It is also right that we take further action to end the system of self-regulation in the House. It is not right that there emerges a conflict of interest between the public interest and MPs' interest. That is in none of our interests. Everybody wants it to stop. That is why an external regulator is of greater benefit to us, as well as being supported, I believe, in the whole country.

Joan Ryan: My right hon. Friend will be aware of the valiant campaign led by the Royal British Legion to have council tax benefit rebranded as a rebate, which would increase take-up and lift thousands of pensioners out of poverty, including up to 20,000 veterans. This Saturday marks the 65th anniversary of D-day. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this would be an appropriate time to announce such a change so that all pensioners, especially our veterans, who have served our country with courage and dignity, can live in dignity?

Gordon Brown: The whole House will want to honour today the sacrifice and service of all those people who were involved in the D-day landings, and all those who were involved in the sacrifice and service that made possible victory in the second world war and the peace that we now enjoy as a result. I want to pay tribute to the individual veterans who are still part of the Royal British Legion. I talked to the treasurer of my branch of the Royal British Legion only a few days ago. We have a delegation of the Royal British Legion coming in to see the Pensions Minister this afternoon. She is proposing that pension credit could be put in a new form, where it could be seen as a rebate. That will be discussed this afternoon. We want it to be as automatic as possible for pensioners to get their right, so we are prepared to discuss how we can move matters forward. I hope all sides of the House will support such a move.

Paul Rowen: With up to 50,000 home owners facing repossession this year, if the Government are doing so much to help them, why is it that only two people have been helped so far?

Gordon Brown: That is not correct. Thousands of people are being helped with the various schemes. The first is the mortgage income support scheme for people who are unemployed, which is now available for those with houses worth under £200,000, and large numbers of people are claiming that. The second is the moratorium that is available on people's building society and bank payments, which we negotiated with building societies. The third is the shared equity scheme, where we are prepared to buy a share of the house to help people move forward. Discussions on that are moving forward for large numbers of people. The fourth is the measures that we are taking to deal with the way in which the banks approach mortgages in the first place.
	The recent report of the Council of Mortgage Lenders said that it expected repossessions to be far less than it had predicted, as a result of the action that we are taking. Any repossession is to be regretted. There are many circumstances in which repossessions happen—for example, if there is a family break-up which is nothing to do with the financial situation of an employee—but there are other situations where repossessions are caused by the lack of money. We are trying to help those people to maintain their mortgages and renegotiate them. I think the hon. Gentleman will find that no Government have done more to help mortgage payers to prevent repossessions. That is what a Labour Government are about. We will not walk by on the other side.

Louise Ellman: Can the Prime Minister say when a decision will be taken about granting a pardon to Michael Shields, following the High Court's decision last December? Michael has now been in prison for four years, following what I firmly believe to be a gross miscarriage of justice.

Gordon Brown: Mr. Shields, as everybody knows, has applied for a free pardon within the terms of the High Court judgment that was handed down on 17 December. I understand the Shields family's concerns about delay. They have waited a long time. He has a large number of supporters. The Justice Secretary is determined to make the best and fairest decision he can, but he can do so only after, in the public interest, assessing all the material that is available. He expects to write to Mr. Shields' lawyers later this month.

John Mason: Is the Prime Minister embarrassed that Britain is now a more unequal country than at any time since the 1960s, and specifically that the poorest 20 per cent. in society have lost real income since 2005, and the richest 20 per cent. have gained?

Gordon Brown: We have taken millions of people out of poverty. We have taken children out of poverty and we have taken pensioners out of poverty, and we have set new targets for child poverty and for pensioner poverty. As a result of this Labour Government, child benefit has been raised, working families tax credit has been introduced, and child tax credit has also been introduced, taking 1.5 million people out of poverty in itself. If we had followed the policies of the Scottish National party, we would be in a far worse position.

Nick Palmer: I welcome the Prime Minister's attack on the abuse of expenses that has so revolted members of the public, but will he also take action to curb the dependence of many Members on second incomes? I have calculated that the Conservative Front-Bench team alone has 57 other sources of income up to £250,000. Would it not be better if, instead of an alternative Government with 57 varieties of special interest, we all concentrated on the job that we were elected to do?

Gordon Brown: All Members want to show that they are undertaking public service, and that they are in it not for what they can get but for what they can give. But one of the issues that repeatedly comes up is Members' second jobs, and it is right that Sir Christopher Kelly looks at the matter.  [ Interruption. ] I hear some murmuring on the Opposition Benches. Methinks that they protest too much.

Henry Bellingham: Will the Prime Minister find time today to meet the Pensions Action Group, which is outside lobbying Parliament on occupational pensions? Is he aware that although many of my constituents were offered 90 per cent., the reality is that they will probably get less than 70 per cent? Why is that? Does he feel in any way guilty that the changes that he made when he was Chancellor have destroyed what was once the best private pensions sector in the world?

Gordon Brown: We have already had a long debate in the House, some time ago, when I showed that the funds of pension funds doubled in the 10-year period that I was Chancellor. Despite what the hon. Gentleman says, all our changes made it possible for the pension funds to have large sums of money. The issue, however, as he knows perfectly well, is that pension funds' income depends on what happens on the stock exchange as much as on anything else, and he must know that that is what has affected most pension funds recently.

Mark Lazarowicz: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will have seen the latest scientific report showing that by the end of the century, global warming will be even more severe than was previously thought. We have gone beyond the stage at which we can stop irreversible damage to our planet, and now the question is whether we can stop environmental catastrophe. What will my right hon. Friend do to ensure that the G8 summit, which is coming up shortly, recognises that point, so that we have the chance in Copenhagen to get the type of agreement that the planet so desperately needs?

Gordon Brown: We will lead the way at the G8 summit in proposing how we can solve the two problems that prevent a Copenhagen agreement. First, we need agreement on intermediate targets for carbon emissions reduction, and that requires us to persuade China and India, as well as America and Japan, to join the group of people who are prepared to commit to those targets. Secondly, finance must be provided to enable developing countries and emerging markets to make the investments that are necessary to reduce carbon emissions in those areas. We will come up with financing proposals, which we hope other countries will be prepared to support, but I must repeat today—I think it is relevant, because tomorrow people are voting on issues of Europe—that that cannot happen without co-operation across the European Union. Those parties that want to break from the European Union will have neither an economic policy that works for Britain nor an environmental policy. That is what we need, and we are going to push forward.

Sandra Gidley: Does the Prime Minister agree that it is wrong to build on grade 2 agricultural land? If so, will he change planning policy to prevent the waste of that precious resource and prevent also Conservative-controlled Test Valley borough council's disgraceful plan to build on fertile green fields?

Gordon Brown: The hon. Lady will have to write me about the individual instance of that council, but this Government's record is that we wish to build on brownfield not greenfield land.

Stephen Ladyman: Did my right hon. Friend note the International Monetary Fund report, suggesting that when we entered the global slowdown, public debt in this country was lower than in all our competitor countries, that it is lower now as we leave the recession and that it will be lower in this country over each of the next five years? Is it not the case that the actions of this Government prepared us to deal with the economic slowdown in a way that the Opposition's policies never would have?

Gordon Brown: Once again, my hon. Friend is proving that the problem that we have to deal with is a global financial recession. Britain is coming through that by taking the right policies. The Opposition party is the first party to go into an election tomorrow with no policy to deal with the economy.

Michael Jack: Is the Prime Minister aware that his departing Home Secretary leaves a legacy of 342,000 cases of domestic violence in this country every year? May I ask him to ensure that he re-examines the effectiveness of policies in that area, because of the cost in human misery on the victims and the cost to our caring services?

Gordon Brown: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be fair and acknowledge that the Home Secretary has also led the way on tougher sentences on domestic violence, including in domestic violence courts. This Government, led by the Leader of the House as well as the Home Secretary, have a record in taking on domestic violence by also funding centres for women throughout the rest of the country. That is vital public expenditure, and we believe that it is important for the health of this country. We will continue to support that measure to help women in our country.

Stuart Bell: The Prime Minister talked about policies as we go into the European elections tomorrow. Can he confirm that, under the Labour Government, 700,000 companies work with the European Union, that 3 million jobs relate to the European Union and that 60 per cent. of our trade is with the European Union? Which party goes into the elections tomorrow with the better record?

Gordon Brown: My hon. Friend will also know that EEF, the manufacturers' organisation, has said that the Conservative European policy
	"is bound to reduce our influence in Europe".
	When the Conservative leader cannot talk to the German Chancellor, the French President or people in Spain and Portugal— [Interruption.] The German Chancellor said that she would not offer the hand of friendship to those who opposed the Lisbon treaty. When the right hon. Gentleman can talk politics about his European group only with a Czech forum, which also supports the Lisbon treaty, he is in real trouble.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members leave the Chamber quietly?

BILL PRESENTED

Sustainable Communities Act 2007 (Amendment) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mr. David Drew, supported by Julia Goldsworthy and Mr. Nick Hurd, presented a Bill to amend the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 to make further provision regarding the consideration of proposals and the representation of parish councils; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 16 October, and to be printed (Bill 104).

Maximum Wage

Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

Paddy Tipping: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prescribe the maximum wage that can be paid; and for connected purposes.
	In effect, the Bill puts a cap on the maximum wage that can be paid to any person in any one year. Mr. Speaker, you will remember that it is 10 years since the minimum wage was introduced. In April 1999, 2 million people benefited from a minimum wage of £3.60 per hour. Since then, the minimum wage has been increased by 60 per cent. to £5.80 this October. Millions more hard-working families have benefited from that landmark legislation, of which the Labour Government should be really proud.
	There was opposition, of course. You will remember, Mr. Speaker, that the CBI and others argued that there would be job losses. That has not been the case. There are still pockets of resistance to the minimum wage, however; I note that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), supported by some of his colleagues, intends to bring forward the Employment Opportunities Bill on 12 June. Let us be in no doubt that that would axe the minimum wage. Instead of going backwards, we now need to go forwards. We need to complete the policy circle and seriously consider the introduction of a maximum wage. In an unprecedented time of economic difficulty, hard-working families and pensioners are facing real problems.
	There are genuine concerns about executive pay packages. It simply cannot be right that some chief executives are receiving more than £6 million a year. It cannot be right that Terry Leahy, the chief executive of Tesco, has a salary package of £4.3 million, which is equivalent to the average earnings of 335 of his employees working in Tesco. It is completely wrong that there are directors at Tesco, BP and Vodafone who are each individually receiving a salary of more than £1 million a year, and it cannot be right that some of these people are being paid bonuses for performance targets that they cannot meet. Bonuses should be for success, not for failure. People abhor the golden pension package. What really disturbed people was the £730,000 payment to Sir Fred Goodwin, who should have been sacked rather than rewarded.
	Against that background, people want change. When they are asked about wage policy, they say that the gap between the highest paid and the lowest paid is too high. Eighty per cent. of people think that those who are paid the lowest should get more and that those who are paid the highest should get less. They want change; they want to see the introduction of a maximum wage. Outside the Westminster village, away from the political classes, there is a growing demand for openness, fairness and justice, and we should listen and respond to it.
	There has been a lot of academic work on the maximum wage, but not much of a political policy focus. However, things are changing. It is significant that in February this year President Obama talked about a maximum wage of $500,000 for executives of companies that have received a state bail-out. It is interesting that UEFA and football clubs across Europe are now talking about maximum wages and transfer fees capped at 51 per cent. of a club's income for their players. Maybe in the not-too-distant future the telephone number figures that professional footballers have been receiving will disappear.
	So how would we set a maximum wage? There is a simple solution. We could say to everybody that no one should receive more than the Prime Minister—£194,000 a year. That is not far-fetched. Just look at what is happening in, dare I say, Kazakhstan, where its Prime Minister, Karim Massimov, made such a proclamation earlier this year. The New Economics Foundation, in its paper, "The Alternative Mansion House Speech", advocated a minimum wage capped at £1 million.
	However, there are fairer and better ways to do it. If we are sensible, we need to link the minimum wage to the maximum wage. For example, there is a strong case for arguing that the maximum wage should be 10 times the minimum wage. Based on £5.60 an hour, that would give a maximum wage of £120,000. A rule of 100 would provide a maximum of £1.2 million. Another approach would be to link the maximum wage to the average weekly wage, which was £479 last year. Some, such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane), have argued that the multiple on the average wage should be 20 times, which would produce a maximum wage of £115,000 per year. It is clear that one of the consequences of a maximum wage policy would be that if the top bosses and chief executives wanted to increase their pay, they would have to increase the pay of everyone who worked in the company. That really is progressive politics.
	At the end of the day, it does not matter what process is used to calculate the maximum wage. The issue is not one of practice but one of principle. It is right and popular that we should move to a fairer society. If events over the past month have taught us anything, it is that we need to be clear that voters abhor greed and injustice. There is a crisis in the economic system, and a matching crisis in our political system, and reform is necessary and urgent. We need to set out a clear agenda and, what is more, an agenda for action. I am confident that the Bill that I wish to introduce provides a vehicle not just for debate and discussion but for progressive policy, change, justice and fairness.

Paul Beresford: I shall certainly not call a vote, but this has to be one of the daftest ideas that I have heard in this House, and we specialise in them on occasion.
	We are an island, but we are not isolated. We are competing in an international field, and many of the people who would be severely damaged by such a Stalinist Government restriction would leave this country, and particularly the City of London and many of its businesses. The damage that that would do to this country would be immeasurable. Going back to a communist-type restriction whereby the Government decide wages and jobs is unthinkable. It would be uncompetitive, and it would destroy us.
	 Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to.
	 Ordered,
	That Paddy Tipping, Mr. David Drew, Kelvin Hopkins, Judy Mallaber, Mr. Denis MacShane, Albert Owen, Mr. Ken Purchase, John Robertson and David Taylor present the Bill.
	Paddy Tipping accordingly presented the Bill.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 16 October and to be printed (Bill 103).

Stroke Services

Ann Keen: I beg to move,
	That this House has considered the matter of stroke services.
	When the House last debated stroke services in July 2007, we had not introduced the stroke strategy for England. However, it was clear from the content of that debate that Members on both sides of the House were united in their wish to see services across the stroke pathway improved for what is one of the major health conditions, and one that has historically been regarded as a poor relation.
	The strategy was launched by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health at the stroke forum conference in Harrogate in December 2007. I know from what he has told me and many other Members that he found the occasion particularly moving, as the strategy was received with great pleasure. Indeed, it has been universally welcomed. The national stroke audit of 2008 by the Royal College of Physicians stated:
	"For the first time since we started conducting a national sentinel audit for stroke...ten years ago, there is reason for optimism...If implemented,"
	the strategy
	"should result in services that are the envy of the world."
	Strokes are devastating and the human cost is enormous. Every year, some 110,000 people in England have a stroke—one every five minutes. Some 900,000 people in England live with the consequences of strokes, which are the largest single cause of severe disability in adults. More than 300,000 adults in England have lasting disabilities as a result of a stroke.
	Having a stroke has been described as an earthquake in the brain—it certainly is; it is a brain attack. Strokes can have shattering consequences for families and carers as well as the individuals who suffer them. There is also a major economic context to stroke, since the cost to the economy runs into billions of pounds every year.

John Bercow: The Under-Secretary has referred to the consequences of stroke, including disability. Will she confirm that something of the order of 100,000 stroke victims suffer the consequence of a communication disability? In that context, will she underline the critical role, which needs to be deployed early, of intervention by a speech and language therapist, not least to address eating, drinking and swallowing, and to attempt to ensure that permanent damage to the ability to communicate is not suffered? That is critical, and I welcome the fact that we are debating the subject today.

Ann Keen: The hon. Gentleman has done so much work on the subject, and I know that the House will want to congratulate him on that. He is absolutely correct. I know from my many years of experience as a nurse the consequences for the patient and the family if the assessment is not made correctly. Not having a proper examination of a swallow reflex can lead to very serious consequences for the patient, making recovery so much longer. The issue that the hon. Gentleman has raised is crucial.

David Drew: Does my hon. Friend accept that, as well as early intervention, those who suffer aphasia—an extreme form of stroke—need a lot of help over much time? There is always a problem about when that help is cut away. Does she agree that we must be sympathetic and ensure that it is done at the last possible moment, and not too early?

Ann Keen: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. The consequences after such a devastating attack on the brain for a person's ability to lead any sort of normal life are catastrophic. I hope that, as the debate progresses, such issues will be raised and that I can address them.
	We are aiming for a revolution in our stroke services. The strategy is a 10-year plan, and we are in only the first year—we have a long way to go. However, I want to outline some improvements that are already happening. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health said in the stroke debate in 2007 that he intended to make stroke a top priority for the NHS. We have done that, and that has been recognised in the NHS operating framework for 2009-10, in which stroke services are covered by a tier 1 vital sign—a "must do" for the NHS. Each strategic health authority's vision for the next stage review is committed to improving stroke care.
	In addition to the extra funding that has gone to all primary care trusts, we are providing £105 million of central funds over three years from 2008 to 2011 to support implementation of the stroke strategy. Some £77 million is being used to accelerate improvements in acute and community services. Another £16 million is being used for stroke-specific training for nurses, allied health professionals and other staff, as well as additional training for stroke physicians, and £12 million is being used to improve public and professional awareness of the symptoms of stroke and the need to act quickly.
	The national awareness campaign—Act FAST—was launched in February. It cannot have failed to catch hon. Members' attention, and many have commented on its success. I am therefore confident that I should not need to remind hon. Members that FAST stands for face, arms, speech and time to call 999, if the person shows any of those signs. The effectiveness of the campaign is now being assessed, but we already know that it has been seen in one medium or another by 92 per cent. of the population.

Nicholas Winterton: I am very impressed by what the Minister is saying, and I have a deep interest in the issue. She is talking about Act FAST, which is an essential policy if people are to suffer the minimum rather than maximum damage from strokes. However, is she satisfied that people are getting treatment fast, both when symptoms are showing and, sadly, after a stroke has taken place?

Ann Keen: There is more work to be done in particular areas. The reconfiguration of some areas still has to be decided, but the understanding of how essential it is to act fast, go to the appropriate clinical facilities and be seen by physicians with expert training is paramount. The number of lives that have already been saved and, in particular, the number of severe disabilities that have been prevented show the progress that we are making.

Barry Gardiner: I welcome everything that my hon. Friend has been saying. On the issue of speed, she will know of the consultation that Healthcare for London has just concluded on the future location of stroke centres in outer London. Does she agree that it is critical that the locations chosen for those centres should have ease of access, so that people can get to them as quickly as possible, and, in the light of that, that Northwick Park hospital, which already serves a growing elderly population and a highly multi-ethnic population, is an ideal candidate for such a centre?

Ann Keen: My hon. Friend raises some interesting points about the recent consultation, which was completed only on 8 May. Announcements will be made in relation to the London strategic health authority on about 20 July, and I know that Northwick Park hospital is held in high esteem for the service that it gives.

Shailesh Vara: I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. She is being very generous indeed with her time. We are all agreed that treatment in a specialist unit is the preferred option. However, some 81 per cent. of all stroke patients are initially admitted to a generic admission unit. We all want that figure to be much lower. Can the Minister therefore give us some indication of the Department's timeline—say, over five to 10 years—for ensuring that more than simply 19 per cent. of people are admitted to a specialist unit, which will of course be far better for them?

Ann Keen: Our strategy is timed to run over a 10-year period. We are well past the first year, and great improvements have been made. As we are speaking, primary care trusts are working, particularly in London, which I am more familiar with, to see how some of those services can be brought forward, particularly through the training and education of staff, because we need expertise in this area. We have made very good progress on cardiac conditions by channelling patients in a particular specialist way, so we know that once we have the evidence to say, "We will save lives and correct disabilities if we do it in a particular way," it will be our duty to speed that up to the best pace that we can.

Iain Duncan Smith: I rise because there are concerns in my area in north-east London, which are shared, by the way, across the Floor of the House by the hon. Members for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen) and for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), who are both with me on this. We believe that the process by which decisions are made on hyper-acute services is not at all transparent or clear. We have tried to press those responsible on whether the process is set in stone. They say that it is, but then they change it. For example, the Royal London hospital received a decision on hyper-acute services on the basis that it had a cardiac centre aligned, yet its scores were no better than those of Whipps Cross hospital. Queen Elizabeth hospital got a decision because of its neurological service, but it has no cardiac service aligned, while others are ruled out on the basis that, somehow, they have neither of those things. It seems that decisions are made on the basis of picking winners, rather than on having a set, transparent form that says, "If you have these things, you are likely to get it and we will adjudicate you accordingly." Will the Minister look at that carefully and ask Richard Sumray and his group how they reach such conclusions? Does she think that they are fair?

Ann Keen: I acknowledge what the right hon. Gentleman has said, particularly in relation to the specific case that he raises. I would be very happy if he would write to me about that, so that I can take it forward, because it is our duty to get things right clinically and in the right area. Everybody is agreed on that. The Royal College of Physicians has congratulated us on how we are managing most of our consultation. However, if there are flaws in it that the right hon. Gentleman wants to raise with me further, I will be happy to look at them.

Andrew Lansley: My point is not about London. To return to what the Minister said about the rapid response associated with the FAST test, the way in which the ambulance service responds is very important. We know from the original work in Newcastle that ambulance staff are entirely capable of making as good a judgment as GPs can about whether somebody may have had a stroke. However, a recent report in the  Emergency Medicine Journal showed that the software used by ambulance staff to triage calls was missing up to half of potential strokes, that only one in four stroke patients were given a category A ambulance response and that in a minority of cases—3 per cent.—potential strokes were given category C responses. Is it the Government's view that we should seek to improve those figures and, in particular, to give possible strokes a category A response?

Ann Keen: The hon. Gentleman raises an issue that I need to look at. I need to see the figures that he has presented and take the matter up, along with my ministerial colleagues who have responsibility for the ambulance service. I am very happy to do that, because—I cannot say this enough—we have to get it right. All our knowledge to date is saying that we are progressing in that direction. However, if there are problems in some areas that we need to address, which the hon. Gentleman has highlighted, it is my responsibility and the responsibility of my ministerial colleagues to take them seriously and to take them up. Again, I would be very happy if he would like to bring the matter to my attention in a way that I can take up.
	Although we can never measure the real achievements of a campaign such as the FAST campaign, it is more than likely that outcomes have already been improved for many people and it is possible that lives have been saved too. The campaign is ongoing, and it is likely to return to television later this year. Many people have phoned and written in to refer to the life that they have saved, having seen the campaign and been made aware, when they were out at social or sporting events. There have even been people who saw the advertisement in our country and, when travelling abroad, were able to notice the symptoms and make people aware, and they have also saved lives.
	The stroke strategy mandates the establishment of stroke care networks as a cornerstone of its implementation. Through working co-operatively within a network, services can be better integrated and better planned, and ensure that patients experience seamless transitions across boundaries within and between health and social care. I feel confident that social care will be raised with me today. The strategy acknowledges that networks are of huge benefit. All stroke services in England now fall within one of 28 networks.
	The stroke improvement programme, or SIP as it is sometimes known, provides national support for improving stroke and transient ischaemic attack services, working with stroke networks, front-line services, charities and patient groups. Key areas of SIP's work include providing information and guidance through newsletters, websites and training events, and ensuring that those working to help services improve are in touch and up to date. SIP also runs national improvement projects with 40 front-line stroke and transient ischaemic attack teams, focusing on the main elements of the pathway: acute stroke, TIA, rehabilitation and transfer of care. The projects are putting best care into practice, helping their patients and showing others the way to improve. It is so important in our health service to share best practice.
	SIP works with primary care trusts and public health departments to strengthen work on preventing strokes, aiming to prevent the estimated 4,000 strokes caused by the under-recognition and under-treatment of atrial fibrillation. SIP is also bringing together and writing up emerging good practice and providing national forums to bring together key leaders for implementing change. That, too, is an important element in any change in organisations, particularly in the health service. We have to have good leadership to encourage people to look at their practice and to take seriously the consultation involved, so that they understand why it is important and why it must be appropriately led.
	The sum of £45 million—about 40 per cent.—of the £105 million of the central funding is going directly to the 152 local authorities with adult social services responsibilities as a ring-fenced grant. This is to encourage and develop good practice in delivering stroke services for adults in their communities, to improve outcomes for those who have had a stroke and to enhance their quality of living and degrees of independence, as well as those of their carers and families.
	Local authorities are working hard to develop services according to local needs and priorities—for example, to reflect any special support needs of obviously disadvantaged groups, such as black and minority ethnic groups, those in much lower socio-economic groups, those who might find services difficult to access, and those at higher risk of a recurrent stroke.

Andrew Murrison: The Minister is right to say that this is an important public health issue, and reducing health inequalities is extremely important. What account has she taken of the rural poor, who are particularly disadvantaged in relation to stroke, given that they are often unable to access stroke services expeditiously?

Ann Keen: The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. I recall travelling to see patients when I worked as a community district nurse, and I know that many patients feel very isolated when they have no access to transport. If they have no close family to help them, the isolation can be awful. We need to go back to the leadership on this. The third sector does an amazing job in rural areas, but speed, access to services and quality of life can be difficult to achieve in those areas. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman works positively to bring these matters to our attention, and I would be happy to look at whether there is a specific route that we could develop and share best practice on. Many members of the third sector will be able to offer the health service a lot in this regard.

Andrew Murrison: Rather than relying on the third sector, might it not be better to follow the suggestion of the Minister's own emergency group, which is looking into re-allocating resources in the ambulance service, that calls relating to strokes should be upgraded from category B to category A?

Ann Keen: That point has already been raised by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley). We always need to see how we can improve these services, and I take that issue very seriously. Today's debate is about sharing our knowledge and raising problems in our constituencies, and we should use it positively to make improvements.

Nicholas Winterton: Following up on the points that have just been raised about the difficulty that some people have in accessing the services that they need, may I say sincerely to the Minister that elderly people who suffer strokes often need intensive physiotherapy? They will get that physiotherapy in hospital, but when they return to residential care or, in some cases, to a residential nursing home, the availability of that treatment is minimal. Are we going to be able to provide the necessary level of physiotherapy and after-stroke care for those in residential care or in residential nursing homes? I believe that this is a crisis area.

Ann Keen: I share the hon. Gentleman's concern. The reality for some people receiving physiotherapy is that they wait for hospital transport to take them to their treatment, have their therapy for half an hour, then sit and wait all afternoon to be taken back home. I have often questioned the value of that approach. We are now working on transforming community services, following the High Quality Care for All review and Lord Ara Darzi's Next Stage review, to see how long-term conditions can be treated in the home. The reality is that we need to deliver therapy to people where they are, rather than transporting them to it. If we look at this from any perspective, not least the value-for-money perspective, we can see that transporting patients in that way is not how we should be delivering services. Those services should be actively encouraged and delivered where the patient is. Training of staff in residential and nursing homes needs to be improved so that some of that physiotherapy can be given in a more gentle, passive way throughout the day.

John Bercow: Pursuant to the very pertinent question that my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) has just asked, is not the distinction in terms of access to the necessary care between those who, by virtue of being in hospital, are—for want of a better term—above the radar and therefore readily visible, and those in a more private environment who fall below the radar and are therefore less visible? Would the Minister care to comment on the need for central leadership, courtesy of the stroke strategy? I sometimes feel that all the parties are poisoned by the dogma of localism to the extent that they do not always recognise that, to protect vulnerable minorities, some sort of central guarantee or leadership has to underpin local initiatives.

Ann Keen: Those points are being addressed through the strategy of caring for people with long-term conditions in the community. Perhaps I can give a plug to my own profession by saying that nurses are leading most of this change. The specialist stroke nurses have always been aware of how the care of the patient could be better delivered. We are aware that, when a stroke has gone badly wrong and disabled someone to a considerable extent, they have often received a Cinderella service. I think that we can all acknowledge that.
	Now, however, we are addressing that matter and asking how we can improve the quality of patient care. We need to enable those patients to take small steps towards being able to dress and toilet themselves and to care for their own personal hygiene. It is important that each individual should have the extra care to enable them to do that. These are small steps; this is not high on the scientists' agenda. The hon. Gentleman mentioned things being below the radar. The reality is that even a small improvement in the daily living arrangements that most of us take for granted will make a difference to the patient's life, as will the ability to communicate following the horrendous experience of being unable to do so. At some stage, we are all going to be vulnerable to such an attack, and we must therefore go back to the basic question of how we would want to be treated and what care we would wish to receive. That must be our starting point, which is why the stroke strategy is so important.
	I congratulate the all-party group on stroke, which is chaired by the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss), on its sterling work. Survivors have come to the House and communicated with us about their difficulties. This debate is welcome, and I welcome the practice that has been acknowledged. I know that we will continue to work on this.
	I would like to make some progress now. Local authorities are the pivotal access point to a range of services that can benefit people who have had a stroke and who want to live independently at home. They are working with their NHS partners locally, with stroke networks and the voluntary sector to help individuals and carers at an earlier point to reduce the likelihood of increased dependence at a later stage. To support that work, many local authorities have used some of this funding to appoint stroke care co-ordinators.
	I want here to acknowledge the good work that the voluntary sector is doing to help implementation of the strategy and to recognise the support it has provided for stroke survivors over many years when stroke was barely ever debated in this House. Volunteers have dedicated their personal time to improving the quality of life for patients and their families. Third sector organisations such as Connect, the Stroke Association, Different Strokes and Speakability provide enhanced services to stroke survivors and their carers. They have much of the expertise and skill required to support further improvements across a broad range of issues.
	All those issues are highly relevant to helping people who have had a stroke to achieve a good quality of life, maximum independence, well-being and, of course, choice. Recently, the Stroke Association launched a report, "Getting better: Improving stroke services across the United Kingdom". While recognising that there is more to be done, this report sets out some excellent examples of where significant improvements in stroke services have been made.
	The strategy noted that staff working in stroke have variable levels of knowledge and skills and acknowledged that nationally recognised, quality-assured and transferable training and education programmes were needed. Once again, we know from our personal experience and our casework what constituents tell us—that the quality of care varies so much. That is why effective training and education programmes are an essential part of this strategy, and a stroke-specific education framework has been developed to help us achieve that. It is available for comment on the stroke page of the Department of Health's website until 12 June next week. Work to ensure that this framework is used to improve the stroke work force is continuing.
	I also need to acknowledge the important work that individual professionals and multidisciplinary teams in the NHS and social care worlds are devoting to making the stroke strategy a reality. There are many examples to cite across all staff groups, but I will cite one example from the latest stroke sentinel audit, which says:
	"Marked improvements have been achieved in the last two years in speed of assessment by therapists after admission. While far from perfect it is clear that a major effort has been made to improve the quality of care being provided nationally."
	Multidisciplinary teams are an essential component of world class stroke care and allied health professionals are already taking leadership roles in developing stroke services. I want to congratulate our AHPs. The front line of health services is always the recognisable face of the doctor and the nurse. However, our AHPs are providing a tremendous service to patients in all clinical categories. Given that we are discussing stroke today, I would particularly mention the importance of the work they do once the diagnosis has been made, the CT scan provided and the appropriate drugs administered. It is the after-care of the experts that then becomes so important, and teams of allied health professionals achieve so much in that respect. We have supported regional AHP leadership challenges, which will culminate in a national final in June to encourage more of them to do so.
	As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health said in his foreword to the strategy:
	"Collectively, these markers set out on ambitious agenda to deliver world class stroke services, from prevention right through to life long support."
	Work has begun to make this vision a reality and it will continue. I know that all hon. Members will continue to work to hold us to account on this strategy; we will work together to continue to improve stroke services for the people of our country.

Andrew Lansley: First, may I welcome the debate and the opportunity it provides to consider the development of stroke services? It comes at an opportune moment, because, as the Minister said, it is approaching two years since we last had a debate whose purpose was to identify what needed to be done. At that point, the Government had just published their document, "A New Ambition for Stroke", but that was already more than a year and half after the National Audit Office had published its groundbreaking study of the delivery of stroke services. I remind the House of the work done by the NAO and by the Public Accounts Committee and I welcome the fact that the NAO is in the process of reviewing its report and the progress made on the strategy. That will be immensely helpful.
	Our debate is also timely in the sense that, two years ago, we looked at the outcome of the 2006 national sentinel stroke audit, and now we are able to consider the results of the 2008 national sentinel stroke audit, which was published in April this year. This is a timely opportunity to look at the progress made. I am pleased to note from the 2008 audit that an improvement has been recorded in all the standards in respect of the hospital care of stroke patients in England. That illustrates the amount of work done by the Department of Health, health services and hospitals across the country after the findings of the original NAO report.
	The Minister kindly expressed gratitude for the work done by the all-party group. As chair of that group, I would like to thank the Department for its unstinting support and I also thank hon. Members across the House for their participation. It is excellent that we have been able to work together to create an environment for the improvement of stroke care.
	As I have said before, I wish it were not necessary for the Department of Health to publish a national stroke strategy in order for hospitals across the country to identify on the basis of clear research evidence the best available treatment for stroke patients. As we will discuss in the debate, we unfortunately remain in a health service where the central structure of guidance and incentivisation has had a big impact on the extent to which hospital and community services are reconfigured. I promise my hon. Friends that I will touch on how the reconfiguration has worked out in London, for example.
	The Minister did not tell us in detail what the national sentinel audit said about the improvements, so I shall take a little time to put some of the key results on the record. First, as I have already said, the improvements recorded on all the set standards have taken the cumulative score in England up to 73 per cent.—a considerable improvement on 2006. Only a small number of hospitals have failed to improve. I do not want to diminish in any way the progress that has been made, but it is important for us constantly to look at the gaps between where we are and where we ought to be. For example, 25 per cent. of patients do not get access to a multidisciplinary stroke unit, yet the incontrovertible evidence is that such access gives patients better outcomes. We want to get increasingly close to 100 per cent. on these figures.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) made an important point about the need to question why only 17 per cent. of patients reach a stroke unit within four hours. If patients have been admitted to an emergency department first, it is clearly not in their best interests to be sent to a medical admissions unit before being sent to an acute stroke unit. I recently visited Peterborough hospital, which has structured its services so that patients brought in in an ambulance are directly admitted to a stroke unit, bypassing the emergency department. I do not know whether that is the right approach given that many emergency departments are perfectly capable of dealing with stroke patients in the first place and ensuring that they get an immediate CT scan. However, I cannot see the benefit of patients being transferred to a medical admissions unit, and then being transferred to a stroke unit. It is not in the best interests of patients to be moved from one place to another within a hospital. Given that probably about 60 per cent. of stroke patients are admitted to a hospital on the same day as suffering the stroke, a much higher proportion should be sent to a stroke unit directly.
	The Minister spoke about the FAST test. The national sentinel stroke audit suggests that in 2008 only about a quarter of patients in total, in the sample, were subject to a FAST test by paramedics. That procedure needs to be embraced, not least because we have rightly told the public about the necessity of identifying the symptoms of stroke and treating such patients as a medical emergency. The last thing that should happen is that the public and patients do not see precisely those criteria being applied by ambulance services, by out-of-hours services—in whose protocols there is often a gap in terms of categorisation of stroke—and when patients are subsequently admitted to a hospital.
	That brings me to the point about immediate scanning. The evidence is clear that it is in stroke patients' best interests to receive a CT scan rapidly. In response to the audit, the Royal College of Physicians said that all patients admitted to hospital with a stroke or potential stroke should be scanned within 24 hours. As the Minister will know, in the absence of a CT scan, it is difficult to ascertain what kind of treatment a patient should receive. At a basic level, a stroke might be either ischaemic, resulting, for example, from a clot travelling to the brain, or haemorrhagic, from a bleed in the brain. As clinicians will make clear, unless one knows which type of stroke is involved as a result of a definitive scan, it is difficult to provide the appropriate treatment. As a proxy for providing good treatment, early CT scanning is integral.
	The audit suggests that only 64 per cent. of such patients were being scanned within 24 hours. Almost by definition, a large number of the rest were not able to get appropriate treatment as rapidly as they should have. Only 21 per cent. were being scanned within three hours—we would not expect that to be possible for 100 per cent., not least because for many patients admitted it would be clear that their stroke occurred more than three hours before, so the option of thrombolysis probably would not be available. In 2008, barely 1 per cent. of stroke patients—and fewer than 10 per cent. of those for whom it would be appropriate—were being thrombolysed. That is a long way from where we need to be. Even four or five years ago, countries such as Australia were approaching 15 per cent. of total stroke patients being thrombolysed, which is nearly the optimum level. Therefore, although we are making progress, we have further to go.
	The national sentinel audit looks at nine indicators, which are intended to represent a bundle of care that, if provided to patients, will be indicative of good quality. Thrombolysis is not included, because it is appropriate only for a minority of patients. However, many of the items mentioned by my hon. Friends are included: for instance, the swallow assessment, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (John Bercow) referred. Interestingly, only 17 per cent. of patients surveyed in the national sentinel audit received all nine indicators of care. There is significant variation. For example, 69 hospitals achieved all nine indicators of care—the full care bundle—for fewer than 5 per cent. of their patients; in contrast, three hospitals achieved more than 70 per cent. As the audit points out, there is a big gap between those three hospitals and most of the others, which are bunching around 40 to 50 per cent. The three hospitals concerned are King's College hospital, the Royal Free and Chelsea and Westminster.
	That takes me on to London and the structure of its services. Undoubtedly, there is discussion to be had about where patients should be admitted for hyper-acute stroke care, immediate CT scanning, possible thrombolysis and so on. If we reform stroke services, we want that to be readily available. However, the approach differs across the country. As far as I can tell, NHS London's approach was to ask an expert panel to assess the quality of care in a large number of hospitals across London, to establish whether they were capable of providing good-quality care: in effect, whether they should be commissioned for hyper-acute stroke care. Having spoken to someone on the expert panel, I know that it reached views on that, but then NHS London said that eight hospitals would be designated as hyper-acute centres. For the life of me, I cannot find out why the answer was eight.

Iain Duncan Smith: That is exactly the point. In north-east London, we have puzzled over the matter. A reason for one to be made a hyper-acute centre is neurological services, but the Royal London hospital does not have that; it has cardiac services. It is almost as if NHS London sat down and decided which hospitals it wanted before the panel was brought into session and made its decisions. It is without any logic, as Whipps Cross—our hospital—actually has stroke services. It is absurd.

Andrew Lansley: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for those interesting observations. I have had conversations with Sir Richard Sykes, chair of NHS London, and correspondence with Ruth Carnell, chief executive of NHS London. I urge NHS London to reconsider whether eight hyper-acute centres in London is the right answer. My view is that there is no evidence to suggest that substantial demand for throughput is necessary before it is possible to sustain a service. For example, the East of England strategic health authority has said that as long as a hospital is likely to be able to offer thrombolysis twice a month on average, there is no reason why it cannot sustain the service. From the commissioner's point of view, London should have as many hospitals offering the service as are willing to offer it. On that basis, they should be commissioned to provide it, as long as they maintain the necessary quality of care.

Iain Duncan Smith: My hon. Friend is being generous in giving way, and I appreciate it. As he will know, one of the big issues in London is traffic. In relation to the eight centres, the calculations are completely ludicrous. Today, it took me an hour to travel from my house in Chingford to the Royal London hospital. NHS London calculates that the journey takes less than half an hour. For local people, the decision to have eight centres is absurd.

Andrew Lansley: My hon. Friend makes a good point. There are several geographical curiosities. Clearly, NHS London's intention was to have a geographical spread for the eight centres. For example, in north-east London, Queen's hospital at Romford was identified for that purpose. If we look at the distribution of stroke patients in NHS London's own document, however, we see that in north London, Enfield and Barnet have large numbers of elderly stroke patients, and there is nothing there at all. Barnet hospital is a potential location, but it is fanciful of NHS London to say that either Northwick Park or Barnet would be an option, because if one shifts to Barnet, a significant part of north-west London is left without a near facility.

Several hon. Members: rose —

Andrew Lansley: Let me finish my point about London, and then I will gladly give way.
	In my view, a greater number of hospitals should be allowed to provide the service, if it is viable and the quality is maintained. Let me illustrate that point with reference to the two hospitals I mentioned. According to the national sentinel audit, Chelsea and Westminster is among the hospitals with the best quality of stroke care, but it is not one of those chosen by NHS London to offer hyper-acute care. The Royal Free, which is among the hospitals with the best standards of stroke care, is also not one of those recommended by NHS London to offer the service. Guy's and Tommy's is another example. As I am sure the Minister knows, the consultant stroke physician Tony Rudd has been an instrumental figure in the improvement of stroke care, and has worked as co-ordinator for the central audit. His hospital has been left out on, as far as I can see, purely geographical grounds. An arbitrary decision has been made about the number of hyper-acute stroke units that should be made available to a greater number of people.

Stephen Pound: Before the hon. Gentleman commits Northwick Park to take on the whole of Barnet, let me point out that in Ealing we have been told that the only hyper-acute unit that we can access will be either Charing Cross or that very same Northwick Park. We have also been told that the modelling is robust when it comes to analysing transport times. May I tell the hon. Gentleman something which I suspect he already knows, and which my hon. Friend the Minister certainly knows? Travelling from Ealing hospital to Northwick Park or Charing Cross is not an experience that one would wish on anyone except at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Andrew Lansley: This is what seems to me to have happened. In London there has been a successful first move to primary angioplasty in cardiac centres. The provision of that service requires a significant level of throughput to the cardiologist whose job is to undertake primary angioplasty. There are nine centres in London. There is therefore a trade-off between the necessary level of throughput and access. It is not possible for a large number of emergency departments or hospitals to offer primary angioplasty, because there would not be enough cardiologists, catheter laboratories and the like.
	I do not think NHS London realises that it can take a completely different approach to thrombolysis for stroke. I believe that, given that most full-service accident and emergency departments have a protocol providing for immediate access to the next available CT scan and given that CT scanning is available at whatever time of day might be involved, they should be capable of offering a hyper-acute service.

Kate Hoey: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the arbitrary nature of the proposed number of acute units, and I hope that that will be reconsidered. Has not another issue been overlooked? The millions of people who come into central London during the day, including tourists, will also be affected by the proposed arrangement. It seems even more arbitrary that Guy's and St Thomas', which is in the heart of central London and has one of the best units in the country, may be left out.

Andrew Lansley: The hon. Lady will know from what I have said that I entirely agree with her.

Andrew Slaughter: The position is actually worse than the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Stephen Pound) have said. It is true that the Ealing stroke unit is closing and that Charing Cross will then be the nearest unit, but in two years' time it will move to St Mary's, which will make travelling even more inconvenient and will place the unit in a less appropriate location.

Andrew Lansley: Both the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Stephen Pound) have mentioned Charing Cross, which is also relevant to the way in which stroke services can be organised for thrombolysis. If CT scanning is available, there is no need for a radiologist on site to provide the necessary diagnosis. I have visited Charing Cross and seen a bank of radiologists providing a 24/7 service. Digital transfer of imaging means that there is no reason why images cannot be sent across London, or indeed across Britain, to a team of radiologists who can provide the diagnosis that is necessary for someone to decide whether thrombolysis is appropriate. I am told that the application of thrombolysis itself is not the most difficult part. The part that must be got right is the speedy interpretation of a CT scan so that the nature of the stroke can be determined.

Andrew Dismore: The hon. Gentleman referred to the question of the Royal Free. Because I was concerned about it as well, I asked the Royal Free about it, and was told that it had accepted the proposals. It said that it had
	"considered...the preferred solution...in the consultation document... that the trust should work collaboratively with UCLH to provide a combined offer which has the potential to deliver a truly world class service. Having taken the advice of its clinical community it now endorses the UCLP proposals which would see a combined comprehensive service with one hyper-acute stroke unit... based at UCLH."

Andrew Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will recall that I visited the Royal Free about seven weeks ago and had a conversation there. I shall rest on my view that as it provides one of the highest-quality stroke services in the country, there is absolutely no reason why it should not continue to offer a hyper-acute stroke service through its emergency department. That is entirely a matter for the Royal Free. If it does not want to do it, that is fine. I merely say that the commissioners should encourage it to do it, because it will be better located for the purpose in relation to the population of north London if, for example, Barnet and Chase Farm choose not to offer the service.

Mark Hunter: May I take up the hon. Gentleman's point about provision across the country? The last few Members who have intervened have referred exclusively to London issues, but I suspect that the hon. Gentleman will be the first to accept that the inconsistency of provision and the time that it takes to travel to hospitals to access this specific form of care are crucial in all parts of the country. In my area of Greater Manchester and my constituency of Cheadle we have local hospitals, but we face the same issues of access. We know from the Royal College of Physicians just how many more lives could be saved if travel times were shorter and access more readily available. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we have a long way to go before we can be content with the consistency of access arrangements across the country?

Andrew Lansley: I do agree, and I think that significant variation is one of the issues on which we should focus. As the hon. Gentleman will know, Manchester has set about the task of reconfiguring its hyper-acute stroke services at a much earlier stage than other areas. I think that it, too, is beginning to realise that it may have unduly restricted the number of centres that should offer such services. There was an attempt to focus the whole of Manchester on Salford Royal hospital. I hope that it will be established that, as time goes on, other hospitals can and should provide those services.
	There is, however, a risk. The Manchester proposals were based on the proposition that patients going to Salford Royal for hyper-acute care would be there for no more than a day or two, and would then be immediately transferred to their local stroke units for the remainder of their acute stroke care. That returns me to the issue of incentivisation. Such an arrangement is fine in circumstances in which, through the tariff, there is a clear distinction between the cost of the hyper-acute service and the cost of the other acute services. We fought a battle for a long time and secured, in the latest version of the tariff, the ability to "unbundle" it into the acute care and rehabilitation phases. If we are to support hyper-acute services, it is equally important for us to unbundle the tariff in order to separate hyper-acute services, including thrombolysis, from other forms of acute care, including care provided for patients for whom thrombolysis is not appropriate. That is not happening at present, and it needs to happen. I urge the Minister to bear in mind that it is important for the stroke team to get it right.
	Before I leave the issue of variation, let me say that it remains a matter of considerable disappointment that stroke services in Wales appear to be consistently poorer than those in England or Northern Ireland. Scotland is not included in the central audit. As I said earlier, the figure for England has risen to 73 per cent., while the Welsh figure is 58 per cent., which is poorer than the figure in the 2006 audit. The rate of improvement in Wales over those two years has been lower than that in England.
	One glimmer of hope in Wales is the pace at which physiotherapy services have improved. Members of the Welsh Assembly clearly wish to make progress. Speaking from over the border, as it were, I hope that Welsh Members—none of whom are immediately available—will receive the message, and, given that this is a devolved matter, will speak to their Welsh Assembly colleagues about it as a matter of urgency.
	I do not want to go on too long because other Members want to speak. I will just make one or two more points. It is important that we continue to ensure that the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines on stroke care keep pace, as it were, with what the central audit is telling us and what the Royal College of Physicians guidelines tell us about the best available treatment. If we are going to mainstream the national stroke strategy throughout the NHS, we must ensure that NICE guidelines clearly set out what is the most cost-effective treatment and the most clinically effective treatment—often with stroke, those two things turn out to be the same—and that commissioners take responsibility.
	It is also clear that most primary care trusts across the country have been commissioning stroke services on the basis of cost and volume and not taking sufficient account of quality. We need to think creatively about how to develop the tariff, not only unbundling it in the way I described, but applying it to the whole care bundle, so that the PCTs or other commissioners are able to ensure that they are clear that they are contracting for a standard of service, with quality indicators built into the services that they buy.

Nicholas Winterton: My hon. Friend has mentioned primary health care. Where does he think general practitioners lie in this matter and in the stroke services strategy? Often, symptoms of a potential stroke display themselves over a period of time, before a stroke occurs. What is the role of GPs? Are they linking with other professionals to deal with it? Perhaps medication can be prescribed, which has not been mentioned so far in the debate, to prevent a stroke from taking place. That can often be in the hands of a GP.

Andrew Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. He makes a good point. It is probably fair to say that, while quite a lot of GPs have taken a close interest in the development of stroke services over the past four or five years, others are still tending to cling to the view that, broadly speaking, people have strokes and the resultant level of disability is not likely to be much influenced by the speed of or access to treatment. However, we now know that speed and access to treatment can make a big difference. That is certainly true, especially for transient ischaemic attacks. The likelihood of someone who has had a TIA having a major stroke in the next four weeks is about 20 per cent. Often it is GPs who are aware that someone has had a TIA. Therefore, it is important for them to ensure that people then get access through the TIA clinic to proper treatment, including anti-coagulation.
	Likewise, it is important that there is a seamless pathway of care. As my hon. Friend will know, we believe strongly that GPs should be much more instrumental in commissioning the care, given that they are aware of its quality. By virtue of that, they should be responsible for the subsequent delivery of rehabilitation and support in the community. Too many stroke patients who have been to see us at the all-party group feel that when they return to the community after hospital treatment it is as though they have fallen off a cliff edge. Services need to be joined up. There are various way we can do that, but the role played by GPs would be a big help.

Ann Keen: Would the hon. Gentleman therefore congratulate the Government on introducing the NHS health check programme, which started in April? As hon. Members have pointed out, it is about prevention. The programme has the potential to prevent, on average, over 1,500 heart attacks and strokes and to save at least 650 lives a year. I am sure that he would like to welcome that.

Andrew Lansley: Yes, I was about to discuss prevention. I am sure that the vascular risk assessment will provide a significant benefit in identifying people for whom there is scope for prevention. It would be helpful, when the Minister speaks about the number of lives that will be saved if the Department had responded to my requests for the supporting data to be published to justify those figures. I am sure that, now that she has mentioned them in the House, all the data to support those figures will be published.
	There is still a job to be done in understanding, if people access vascular risk assessments, what the appropriate follow-up will be. We must be sure that we do not have a lot of people who become "worried well". They may need an improved diet or physical activity—hopefully, they will not need medication to which they do not have access. We must ensure that the necessary resources to support primary prevention are put in place.
	On prevention, an NOP poll from October last year showed that nearly one in five of the public still had no knowledge of the causes of stroke. It is important that we address that. There is good evidence to study. The World Health Organisation Monica—multinational monitoring of determinants and trends in cardiovascular disease—study published in  The Lancet Neurology in 2005 made it clear that if we are going to improve stroke care
	"socioeconomic factors seem more important than classic risk factors for the establishment of stroke trends in the population"
	Therefore, the argument that we have often discussed here about the reduction of inequalities involves not just health inequalities in isolation—classic socio-economic determinants of health are important in determining the level of stroke mortality.
	It is also important, and we can now see the benefit coming through, to note that one of the lessons of that study was that the
	"quality of stroke care makes a profound difference, not only to the patient and his or her family but also to the burden of stroke in the population at large."
	What does that mean? I think that it means that by educating people in the NHS and beyond about the causes of stroke, its symptoms, the necessity to treat it as a medical emergency and the possibility of being able to impact positively on it through treatment, we are making people more aware of the risk, the disability, the mortality associated with stroke and the fact that they can do something about it. That will, I hope, make a big difference to stroke mortality.
	We need to improve outcomes. It is not that we spend less on stroke; we spend a lot on it. However, for too long too much of what we have spent has been expenditure as a consequence of the disability that results from strokes. Too little has been spent to ensure that we prevent stroke and that where stroke occurs we access treatment rapidly.
	There are still significant disparities between treatment in this country and in others. There is still more we can do. It is not just about thrombolysis. It is also about early supported discharge. Only about a third of patients get access to early supported discharge after a stroke. We need that figure to rise. There is a continuing agenda, which we will continue to support and press for to improve stroke services and make their quality more consistent across the country. I hope that through prevention and awareness of stroke, stroke outcomes will further improve in the years ahead.

Laura Moffatt: I am delighted to be able to take part in the debate. I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) talk about how we can prevent stroke and the devastation that it brings. I do not think there can be a family in the UK who has not been affected by stroke in one way or another and does not understand how difficult it is to live with the consequences.
	My hon. Friend the Minister will understand if I start by talking about how we used to treat people with stroke and how we treat them nowadays. Stroke is one of the key indicators of how the NHS has transformed the way it deals with such devastating conditions. I am sure she remembers what we did when someone was admitted to the ward and we knew that they were suffering from stroke or some cerebral vascular accident. We made them comfortable in the ward and they stayed with us for several weeks. We put their affected arm on a cushion, walked them up and down the ward sometimes and hoped that all went well when they went home. How different it is today, thank goodness.
	It was interesting to listen to the debate about the London reconfiguration of services. There was a time when we would not have even discussed where a stroke patient was admitted. In fact, for a while I was very concerned that we were considering the effects of a cardiac incident in much more detail and much more forcefully than we were ever thinking about the effects of stroke. We should therefore be congratulated on having this debate and on how we now address stroke.
	My hon. Friend the Minister clearly set out the effects of stroke, and how frequently people are affected by it. In the UK, it kills someone every five minutes. When we cite the figures, it can sometimes be difficult to understand how devastating stroke can be. Eighty per cent. of strokes are caused by the clot—the one that could respond to thrombylisis. That is why it is so vital that people with stroke are treated immediately. I hope that in my brief contribution I shall be able to offer some examples of how we can address stroke and reduce the incidence of it, and make sure that the unfortunate people who suffer a stroke can have better treatment.
	Crawley has a very diverse population, and 14 per cent. of people there come from black and minority ethnic groups. We do not know why—there is not the research for us to understand it—but such groups, and particularly Afro-Caribbean people, are disproportionately affected by stroke. I was therefore delighted when the South East Coast Ambulance Service NHS Trust decided to focus on three areas in Surrey, Sussex and Kent with a particularly high proportion of people having to dial 999 because of a stroke, and Crawley was one of those areas. The trust decided to think about the strategy for dealing with that, and to look at not only responding quickly and getting people into an appropriate unit swiftly, but what role the ambulance service could play in reducing stroke. That is why I am delighted to be able to talk about the work that that service has done.
	We have debates about the reconfiguration of such services, and some of us—most of us, I think—have been through some very difficult and uncomfortable times, but stroke services illustrate why we have to make sure that these devastating events are dealt with in the best possible unit. Paul Sutton, chief executive of SECAmb, has always said that the problem is not to do with getting people who have experienced an event such as a stroke into the nearest front door, but with getting them into the right front door—that of an emergency centre that will be able to treat them properly. When our ambulance services arrive at a site, they often do not pick people up immediately and rush them to the closest institution. I know that people sometimes feel that they should do that, but time is taken to examine the patient and to understand what is going on. Often, the ambulance will stay at the home for some time, while staff take advice about how best to treat that patient and where best to take them. Stroke is one of those conditions that serve to illustrate why we have to make sure that patients go to the right place.
	SECAmb has chosen Crawley as one of the areas on which to focus, and it will soon have on its streets ambulances with wraparound advertising for the FAST campaign. I do not think there is a single Member who will not accept that that has been the most amazing campaign. I pay tribute to the actors who took part in it—I genuinely hope they are actors—as I think they did an extraordinary job in taking viewers through the process of understanding what a stroke can look like. Their work has had a tremendous effect. Our ambulances will have all that advertising on their sides.
	One of our stroke leads in SECAmb is David Davis. He is an amazing gentleman from Crawley.  [Interruption.] No, he is not the Member who has just been referred to from a sedentary position; this David Davis is much better. He is taking a fantastic lead in getting out into the communities that most need to understand the causes of stroke. He will therefore be found in the gurdwara, in temples and in mosques, helping people understand about stroke. If I can make one plea to the Minister it is that I want David to do more of this work. I want him to be out there preventing stroke, but he has to do his other job as well, of course, and it is difficult for a busy ambulance service to be able to free up him up along with the colleagues who help with this work. I want to make sure not only that our ambulance service staff are visible out in our communities doing that fantastic work, but that we have enough paramedics and paramedic technicians to back them up and support them. I want that work to continue because I believe it is having a considerable effect in helping to reduce the number of strokes in our communities. We need to make sure that much more of that preventive work takes place.

Mark Hunter: The FAST campaign has featured in the contributions of several hon. Members, and it has, of course, been a great success, but I understand that the funding that supports it is in place for only three years. Does the hon. Lady agree that there is a danger that some of this excellent work could be undone if there is not a longer-term commitment to funding it beyond the current three-year period?

Laura Moffatt: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I believe that the health services move so quickly that in three years' time we will have moved on to new campaigns. I certainly hope the FAST campaign becomes part and parcel of our understanding as citizens of what can happen to people. I see it very much in the same terms as the seat belt campaign in that there is an initial start-up process, but the point then becomes embedded in our psyche and in our understanding of how we address things. I am fairly certain that there will come a time when we do not need a stroke campaign, but that we will then have to focus on other causes.
	We have talked about the need for a quick and adequate response for those with stroke, and it will be a disappointment to all Members if that falls short of the excellent stroke strategy requirements for treatment. I do not think any of us would shy away from being a critical friend of the NHS if that were necessary, and from trying to make the situation right if it had gone wrong. All of us would happily highlight these campaigns in order to make sure that all our constituents got the service they deserved if they were affected by stroke.
	I believe the stroke strategy has given focus to the whole stroke campaign and an understanding of where we are going with it. Interestingly, in a recent review of health services in the north of West Sussex, stroke was one of the principal issues that was addressed to try to strengthen our services. Crawley hospital has an amazing stroke unit; people come to it quickly after their initial treatment and there is a great sense of camaraderie. The staff are tremendously well motivated and qualified to deal with stroke.
	The Minister will completely understand my second plea to her, as she is a former nurse, and once a nurse, always a nurse. Stroke mainly affects people who are over 55, and more commonly over 65, and the treatment of it should be a well-respected specialism that takes its rightful place alongside all other emergency care. Those who deal with stroke should be well regarded by those within the wider profession and be regarded from outside the profession as engaged in a field that contributes enormously to well-being. It is not a second-class field. Those in the nursing profession used to say, "Oh well, I'm going to go and look after older people." That should be seen as up there with the most interesting of services. By making sure there is such high regard, we will be able to ensure that the service continues to improve and attracts the very best quality nurses.
	To make sure that that happens, we must ensure that the professionals in our communities come together. In February, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State launched a well-being programme in Crawley, dedicated to ensuring that people are exercising, that they are dealing with issues such as hypertension, which of course is associated with one of the highest predispositions to stroke, that such conditions are being properly monitored and that diet is being addressed. We also know that those who are obese have a predisposition to stroke. This is about tackling all those issues at a very basic level within our primary care services and about our emergency services coming together to ensure that people are less affected by this horrible condition.
	When somebody has a stroke and receives the initial treatment—we hope that goes well and that the damage to the brain is reduced—we must ensure not only that they get the care in hospital that they desperately need but that it continues. Local authorities have a huge role to play in ensuring that timely adaptions are done at home, but co-ordination can sometimes be a difficult issue for local authorities to face. They need to ensure that when people are at home—be it in their own private home or in local authority or social housing—and needing to stay mobile, because that is crucial following a stroke, the adaptions are done in a timely fashion so that life is at least decent for them.
	We want to ensure that throughout the service, from the first moment that horrible event happens to when people start to make progress through speech therapy and physiotherapy, things are as good as they possibly can be. The way we can properly tackle this is by ensuring that more research is done. The Stroke Association is a great advocate of ensuring not only that the research is done but that people are treated properly, and it does excellent research in all sorts of areas. The Minister may be interested to learn that because of the work being done in Crawley, the Stroke Association gave SECAmb a beacon of good practice award. That is something of which we can be justly proud in our area.
	That is not to say that we are going to rest on our laurels, because we must continue to fight for better services for people who have a stroke. We must make sure that the emergency care is as it should be; we must continue to do much more preventive work; we must ensure that everybody within the professions is up to speed, and that includes GPs, nurses and practitioners throughout the national health service and beyond; we must improve the co-ordination of services when people return home, to ensure that adaptions are done in a timely fashion; and we must support the excellent voluntary groups, which make life better for those who have had a stroke, allowing them to come together with others to share experiences and to laugh and cry together over what can be a devastating event for a family. That is so important, and those groups are such a crucial element to all the work, as the Minister has said. In that way, we can genuinely ensure that people who suffer a stroke in the United Kingdom—and in England and Wales in particular—will have the best possible outcome following what can be the most appalling thing that can happen.

Stephen Pound: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, not only for the knowledge and expertise that she brings to this subject but for her personal commitment to it. Does she agree that if we are seeing a move from the widely established stroke units to hyper-acute stroke units for our thrombolytic treatment, there is a problem when it comes to repatriating the patients from the hyper-acute unit to their home without the intervening phase of the ordinary stroke unit? Does she agree that an essential component of precisely the process to which she referred is that the patient move from the hyper-acute unit to a stroke unit and then home?

Laura Moffatt: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, because he precisely illustrates the difficulty. Stroke is such an interesting condition because it involves the immediate and pressing nature of trying to reduce the effect and then the very long and ongoing rehabilitation that needs to take place. My opinion is that intermediate stroke units have an enormous role to play; I have seen them working well in my constituency and I have no reason to believe they would not be right for the rest of the UK, particularly London, which I know he is very concerned about.
	I hope that we feel passionate about stroke, because we should do. It affects so many families and we have made enormous strides in tackling it over the years. I am very proud to be able to visit the units and see how people are treated—I can certainly say that about Crawley. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to say a few words about the work of SECAmb, because I believe it to be a gold-star service.

Greg Mulholland: I, too, warmly welcome this important and timely debate, and pay tribute to Members on both sides of the House for their contributions and to the all-party group, which has done so much to push this important area of health care and health policy up the agenda. As stroke is the third biggest killer in this country, after heart disease and cancer, and the leading cause of adult disability, it must remain an absolute priority for the NHS.
	The Minister has mentioned the cost of stroke care to the NHS. The relevant figure is £2.8 billion, and the individuals involved—those unfortunate people who have suffered a stroke—take up more than a fifth of all hospital beds in the country. This issue has an economic cost, as well as a real and tragic human one. Some 45 per cent. of those who suffer a stroke die from it, not to mention the fact that stroke causes the many levels of disability that other hon. Members have mentioned.
	We all acknowledge that in the past stroke care did not get the attention or the funding that it deserved, given those stark statistics. Until a few years ago this country had one of the worst stroke care regimes in western Europe, but things have turned a corner and improved since the publication of the national stroke strategy in December 2007, which was warmly welcomed in all parts of the House. It is encouraging to see the impact that the strategy has already had and the improvements made since that very important milestone.
	It is also important that stroke was established as a "national priority" in the NHS operating framework of 2008-09, which obliges primary care trusts to set out their plans to improve stroke services. I emphasise to the Minister that although that welcome strategy is in place, we need to monitor things at the PCT level to ensure that improvements are happening on the ground. It is also important to stress that although the strategy is extremely welcome, the Minister must acknowledge that there are issues to address in respect of not having set time scales for some of the improvements within the 10-year period. Perhaps we need more milestones to aim for in order to see how the strategy is being implemented. It is excellent that we are talking about this nearly two years after the strategy was introduced, but it would be encouraging to say exactly where we are aiming to make tangible improvements in stroke care over the course of the 10-year period. I also welcome the Government's announcement of their intention to commission an independent evaluation of the strategy and its implementation—that is enormously important, because we all need to follow its progress. Will the Minister let the House know when those results will be made public and when that process will be complete?
	Several matters relate to the strategy and to stroke care in general. The first, as has been mentioned, is the great need for awareness of the symptoms of stroke and the need for proper referral from that point. Data from October 2008 show that 18 per cent. of public respondents had no knowledge at all of the symptoms of stroke. Rather more alarmingly, a 2005 National Audit Office report showed that only just over half of GPs would immediately refer someone with suspected stroke for the emergency care that is so crucial to the outcome for stroke patients from that initial point.
	I want to echo comments made by other hon. Members about the Act FAST campaign, which we all agree has been enormously powerful in demonstrating the situation visibly and in an easy to understand way.

Mark Hunter: As my hon. Friend has said, the Act FAST campaign has been acknowledged by Members on both sides of the House. One of the direct consequences of the success of the campaign is that the number of calls to the Stroke Association's helpline has increased by some 36 per cent. The association says—this is perhaps an indication that it is struggling to meet demand—that it estimates a 200 per cent. increase in the number of calls that have been abandoned while people were waiting to get through. It might be said that that is a consequence of the success of the campaign, but there is a real issue about support for the Stroke Association. I invite my hon. Friend to agree with me, and I hope that when the Minister responds later she will discuss what further support the Government can give the Stroke Association.

Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend for that valuable and important contribution, which addresses a point that I was about to make. I echo his comments in asking the Minister, in light of the extra volume of calls, what additional help hospitals and voluntary organisations are being and will be given, so that they can cope with the very welcome additional strain that has resulted from the success of the campaign. That is an important area for the Minister to concentrate on.
	Do the Government intend to do any quantitative analysis of the success of the campaign? I think that it would be very insightful. As has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt), have they considered the impact on particularly high-risk groups, such as those in certain black and minority ethnic communities—in particular those from south Asian or Afro-Caribbean communities? If the Minister can give us some indication of how the Government plan to target those particularly at-risk groups, that would be very useful.
	Let me turn to prevention. Hon. Members have already said that that is absolutely crucial. When we consider that 20,000 strokes a year could be avoided through preventive work on high blood pressure, irregular heart beats, smoking cessation and the wider use of statins, we see that prevention is an absolute priority in dealing with strokes. Again, if we consider the economic impact, preventing just 2 per cent. of strokes in England would save £37 million of care costs. That is a matter that needs even higher priority in the strategy.
	I welcome the NHS health check programme. It can highlight those most at danger from stroke, as well as those at danger from other conditions. How many people have been invited to these health checks, and are the most at-risk groups—the most susceptible groups—being invited? That is crucial, if the checks are to have the kind of impact that we all hope that they will in reducing the number of strokes that happen in the country.
	On treatment, as has already been mentioned the most crucial thing for stroke patients is to arrive swiftly at a stroke unit. The concerns that suspected stroke patients are not being prioritised sufficiently within the ambulance service are very real. In terms of the provision of CT scans and thrombolysis, the importance of specialist stroke units cannot be overstated. The Stroke Association has described stroke units as
	"the single most beneficial intervention that can be provided after stroke".
	As other hon. Members have said, however, there are disparities in care between those who are admitted immediately to stroke units and those who spend time on general wards or in accident and emergency departments. The simple fact, borne out by the figures, is that patients who are admitted to stroke units quickly are more likely to survive and to make a better recovery. Again, we should consider the costs, the impact on patients and the length of time involved; such patients will spend less time in hospital than their general ward counterparts, who have a 14 to 25 per cent. higher mortality rate.
	The 2008 Royal College of Physicians audit shows that there has been a huge increase in the number of hospitals that have protocols for ambulance service emergency transfer of patients to stroke units from 4 per cent. in 2004 to 49 per cent. in 2008. That is extremely welcome, but, as we have already heard, it is not happening up and down the country. I make reference to the particular concerns in London and echo the concerns about the somewhat arbitrary natures of the decisions that appear to be being taken.
	The provision of thrombolysis, as has been mentioned, is much too limited. I hope that the Minister will agree that that is an area where the strategy so far is not achieving what we all hope that it will achieve. Last year, only 8 per cent. of patients received thrombolysis, even though 15 per cent. of patients were eligible for that kind of treatment. Both CT scans and thrombolysis fall below National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence standards.

Andrew Lansley: Before the hon. Gentleman carries on, I think that he will find that just over 8 per cent. of the appropriate population receives thrombolysis. The appropriate population is about 15 per cent., and about 8 per cent. of those receive it. In fact, the proportion of stroke patients who receive thrombolysis is just under 1 per cent.

Greg Mulholland: Did I not say 0.8 per cent.?

Andrew Lansley: You said 8 per cent.

Greg Mulholland: I apologise and thank the hon. Gentleman for that correction. I meant to say 0.8 per cent. and appreciate the intervention. May I echo what he has said about the inadequacies in CT scans and thrombolysis? NICE guidelines clearly state that all patients should be scanned, diagnosed and treated with thrombolysis, if required, within an hour. We have to acknowledge that we have a long way to go before we achieve that.
	Treatment of mini-strokes—TIAs—has already been mentioned. Effective treatment of TIAs is very important, as the risk of having a stroke within the first four weeks of a TIA is 20 per cent. According to the 2008 RCP stroke audit, only 45 per cent. of hospitals meet the stroke strategy's recommendation of investigating and treating high-risk TIA patients within 24 hours, which means that 55 per cent. of them are not doing so. Again, there is a lot of work to do on that, and I ask the Minister to give us her thoughts on how the figure will be improved.
	After-stroke care is the final area of focus in this debate. There are real concerns about stroke patients—and indeed their families, who clearly have an important role to play in the rehabilitation and care of stroke patients—not yet having their needs fulfilled in that regard. After-stroke care is essential to regaining and relearning skills, sometimes even basic skills of everyday living. Rehabilitation is therefore absolutely essential. There have been improvements in that area, but even so, only half of stroke survivors receive rehabilitation in the first six months after discharge, and only a fifth do so in the next six months. I am afraid that it is an area in which, so far, the strategy is simply not delivering.
	Post-hospital rehabilitation needs to be organised while the patient is still in hospital, and not when they are discharged, and that has to be addressed. For example, home adaptations clearly have to be done before a patient returns home, so that they can carry on living their life, which is what we very much wish them to be able to do. The provision of information is an easy, cheap way to assist in the important process of rehabilitation, but there need to be improvements to that, too. The stoke audit of 2008 that I mentioned found that there had been little progress since 2006 in improving the amount of information given to patients and carers in hospital about reducing the risks of a further stroke. Of course, the whole purpose of rehabilitation is not just recovery, but prevention of further strokes. Some 58 per cent. of those patients for whom diet advice was applicable are recorded as having received it, and much of the information that is provided is not particularly helpful. A survey carried out by the Healthcare Commission, admittedly back in 2005, found that only 55 per cent. of patients understood the information that they received in hospital.
	I now come to the issue of care for those who are not able to return home. The voluntary sector does a wonderful job in many cases, assisting people in coming to terms with life after a stroke, yet the resources are simply not there, as is the case, I am afraid, for a great deal of social care for people recovering from conditions. I ask the Minister whether it is not time for the Government to consider making more resources available to voluntary groups to enable people to carry on living their lives in the community, or in specialist homes, if that is what medical professionals deem that they need. The whole issue of social care needs more work, and I ask the Minister to address the issue in her comments.
	I welcome the opportunity for this debate. I hope that we can have such debates at regular periods throughout the 10-year strategy, no matter which party is in government. It is important that all of us with an interest in this area of health care continue to monitor the implementation of the strategy, because all of us in all parts of the House are absolutely committed to ensuring that stroke care is a priority for the health service, and is very much at the top of the health policy list. All of us will continue to have that commitment, and we want the strategy to succeed.

Andrew Dismore: I particularly want to address the issue of the expansion of stroke services in London, on which Healthcare for London has recently been "consulting" as part of its stroke and major trauma consultation exercise. I put "consulting" in inverted commas, as it has been such a botched consultation that the public see that expansion of services as a cut. In my area, we have seen the unsightly picture of one NHS body advertising and lobbying against another, adding to the atmosphere of confusion and disinformation all round, and turning what should be a positive story into a negative one. Members of Parliament have been kept somewhat out of the loop, too.
	Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust wrote to me on 7 April to plead its case, as opposed to that of Northwick Park hospital, for being one of the proposed eight hyperacute stroke units, on the basis of its location. Its letter refers to its existing transient ischaemic attack centre and the need for a local stroke unit. It implied that current services would go as a result of the changes, but of course they will not; they will be continued, as will the services provided by TIA centres and local stroke units everywhere else, and certainly in my area.
	Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust then took out a full-page advertisement in the local newspaper—an advertisement that I can describe only as a scare story. It somewhat irresponsibly implied that cuts, which are not proposed, would be made, and that people's chances of survival would be reduced if the trust did not get its own way. It exhorted people to write into the consultation supporting its views, without giving a true picture of what is proposed, and it whipped up a climate of fear in the area. The Tory council then joined in the act, spending £42,500 on a letter to every household, signed by the leader of the council, who is the Finchley Tory parliamentary candidate. Again, it did not put the argument fairly, but I am pleased, or not pleased, to say that it gave the wrong details regarding how people should send their response by e-mail, so not many responses came in. That was rather a waste of £42,500 of council tax payers' money.
	That set off the local papers, which ran stories about NHS cuts, although no cuts, only an expansion of services, were proposed in our area. A headline in the Barnet press stated, "Council kicks out at NHS bid to ditch stroke unit", although there is no bid to ditch any stroke unit. Slightly more responsibly, the  Hendon & Finchley Times said:
	"Every minute you lose is crucial."
	There has been no attempt by NHS London or Healthcare for London to show a true picture of what is planned. There was not one effort to write a letter to the local papers explaining what is going on, so a good news story ended up as a cuts story by default. This is my question for my hon. Friend the Minister: when will the NHS get its act together in explaining what is actually going on? When will clinically led plans—that is what the plans are—be properly explained by clinicians to the public? Is it not time that the NHS had a decent communications strategy, with proper, objective, wide consultation on such major plans? If we can do that locally, why can it not be done London-wide, and why has the NHS simply ignored all that is going on? It is simply unacceptable, because the proposals are a good news story.
	Clinical evidence shows that patients are 25 per cent. more likely to survive or recover from a stroke if they get treated in a specialist centre. In London, there are big differences in the quality of stroke care. Rates of death in different hospitals vary considerably, and people in outer London have the most limited access to high-quality stroke services, which is why the proposals are particularly important. For some strokes, clot-busting drugs can stop and reverse the damage, but only after a high-quality scan has shown whether the patient is suitable for the drugs, so stroke patients need fast access to scanning facilities to have the best chance of recovery. Currently fewer than 10 per cent. of suitable patients are offered thrombolysis.
	So what is proposed? As I have said, the proposals are not a cut. The NHS plans to invest more than £23 million a year extra in new stroke services for London, with more and better trained doctors, nurses and therapists to deliver those new services. There is a proposal for eight hyperacute stroke units, which will provide the immediate response in the first 72 hours after a stroke, or until the patient is stabilised. They will be open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Anyone having a stroke in London will be taken to one of them to have a brain scan. If appropriate, they will receive the clot-busting drugs within 30 minutes of arriving at the hospital.
	More than 20 stroke units will provide ongoing care once the patient is stabilised, and the transient ischaemic attack services will provide rapid assessment and access to a specialist within 24 hours for high-risk patients, or seven days for low-risk patients. Everyone in London will be within a 30-minute ambulance drive of one of those services. Obviously, the issue of how long that journey will take is a matter of contention. It is easy for us who drive around in cars to try to compare how long it would take us to do a journey with how long it would take a blue-light ambulance, but there is no comparison.
	The Tory leader of Barnet council—the Finchley Conservative candidate—has suggested that the figures are based on journey times at half-past 2 o'clock in the afternoon. As part of its analysis, Healthcare for London sourced the details of every single ambulance journey in London for three years—about 4 million records. It compared 100,000 blue-light journeys with 2 million other urgent ambulance journeys. It assessed the impact of the day of the week and the rush hour on the journey times, and it conducted a lot more detailed analysis besides. The figure is also backed up by the day-to-day experience of the London ambulance service in taking patients to eight specialist cardiac centres across the capital, so it is not surprising that the LAS supports the proposals. To give my own snapshot, I spent a shift driving around with the ambulance emergency services, and my experience supports the idea that the times are probably achievable.
	Locally, research by my PCT in Barnet shows that people living in deprived areas are more likely to die of vascular diseases, to smoke and to be obese, and they are thus at greater risk of having raised blood cholesterol levels, pre-diabetes, diabetes or high blood pressure. They are also less likely to visit their GP and have vascular disease risk factors identified and managed. There is thus a higher risk and incidence of stroke in the most deprived part of the borough—the west—which is my constituency. That has been confirmed by the opinion of the PCT medical director, Dr. Andrew Burnett, with whom I spoke last night. Northwick Park is easier to access from the west, my constituency, than Barnet hospital—a matter to which I shall return.
	For our part of London, consideration was given to Northwick Park, Barnet, University College hospital and the Royal Free. NHS London preferred Northwick Park to Barnet, because it provides better travel times and reflects existing patient flows. These arguments are supported by the London ambulance service. From my area the road to Northwick Park is mainly a straight, wide major road, whereas the road to Barnet is little more than a country lane.

Andrew Lansley: In its document, NHS London presented Barnet hospital and Northwick Park as alternatives. Will the hon. Gentleman explain why they need to be alternatives, and why it is not possible for both hospitals to provide scanning and thrombolysis?

Andrew Dismore: If the hon. Gentleman reads the consultation document from Healthcare for London, the answer is there.

Andrew Lansley: Where?

Andrew Dismore: "The shape of things to come", the compact document which is easier to handle when making a speech, states:
	"We believe that hyperacute stroke care should be delivered in no more than eight sites across London"—
	this is on page 20. It continues:
	"This would optimise the number of patients being treated at each site, ensure expert teams are available 24 hours a day—improving survival and reducing disability".
	The hon. Gentleman will be aware that if the aim is to provide very specialised high-quality services, it becomes an argument— [Interruption.] If he will stop intervening from a sedentary position and let me make the point, I shall be happy to give way to him again. The argument in this case is very much the argument advanced back in the early 1990s by the Government, whom he supported, for the closure of Edgware general hospital and the merging of the accident and emergency department there with that at Barnet hospital, on the basis that by creating a critical mass of patients, a higher quality service could be delivered.
	That is exactly what is being proposed in relation to the stroke units. If somebody were to convince me and Healthcare for London that an equally high-quality service could be delivered at Barnet hospital, I would have no objection. My concern is for my constituents—not for the whole of Barnet, not for Enfield, but for my constituents, who would find access to Northwick Park rather easier from the particularly deprived parts of my constituency than they would to Barnet.

Andrew Lansley: I had not realised that the consultation in London was somehow the fault of the previous Conservative Government, but then everything that the hon. Gentleman complains about is probably the fault of the previous Conservative Government. My point is not that some of his constituents should be advantaged by using Northwick Park rather than Barnet. I contend that there is nothing in the consultation document that demonstrates why it is not possible, as has been said, by NHS East of England, for example, for a large number of emergency departments to continue to offer acute care of stroke, including thrombolysis, as long as they are able to have, for example, immediate access to CT. The emergency departments of most hospitals increasingly have access to CT. The images can be sent somewhere else for interpretation—the specialist part—if necessary.

Andrew Dismore: I certainly do not hold the hon. Gentleman responsible for the consultation. His Government were not interested in spending an extra £23 million on services. They were interested in cutting services. The point that I am making is that a very similar argument was advanced by his Government for closing Edgware general hospital—that better A and E services could be delivered through the critical mass resulting from a bigger patient base at Barnet hospital than at the two hospitals, Edgware and Barnet.
	I listened to what the hon. Gentleman said, and no doubt my hon. Friend the Minister will respond to it later. We need a critical mass of patients to be able to deliver high-quality services. We have a difference of view. Obviously, if it is possible to have stroke care at both hospitals, I have no objection, but if that is not possible, I prefer, on behalf of my constituents who live in the deprived part of the borough, the existing proposals for Northwick Park to the case for Barnet.
	We debated across the Floor the subject of UCH and the Royal Free. Preference was given to UCH, although I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the services at the Royal Free are of a very high quality. As I explained to him, I raised the matter with the Royal Free. It has accepted the proposal that it should work in partnership with UCH on the basis that UCH is able to provide better standards than the Royal Free at the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, which is part of UCH. It is also important to point out that the Royal Free and UCH scored higher than Barnet on future clinical standards.
	Given the criteria in the consultation, I understand why Northwick Park was preferred to Barnet. It is important to recognise that the hyperacute units are only part of the story. I object to the scare stories run by the Conservative party that we will see the closure of stroke units and TIA units across London, which is not the case. As far as I can see, not only in my constituency but in my sector of London, those units will continue. That is the general picture, from what I know of other parts of the capital. It is wrong to suggest that those units will close and to scare people in that way.
	The TIA services for people who have had a mini-stroke will be provided at hospitals with hyperacute units or ordinary stroke units, as they are now. These assessment services will reduce the chance of someone going on to have a full stroke by up to 80 per cent. TIA and stroke services are provided at Barnet and at the Royal Free, as well as at Northwick Park and UCH, and they will continue to be there. The intention is to provide a comprehensive service, including the existing units at Barnet and the Royal Free.
	An additional point that I put forward in my response to the consultation was that I would like to see continuing care and rehabilitation services provided at Edgware community hospital as well. The rehabilitation services there have extra capacity, which could be expanded to deliver additional help in a constructive way and closer to home for patients suffering from the long-term after-effects of stroke.

Malcolm Moss: I begin by apologising to the Chair, the Minister, colleagues and Members in that I may not be in the Chamber for the full duration of the debate. I have other commitments at the Foreign Affairs Committee later this afternoon.
	Strokes are one of the most widespread and expensive conditions in the UK, costing the nation around £7 billion every single year, and on current trends the prevalence is set to increase at a worrying rate. Years of neglect in this area of public health policy have left the UK with the unenviable reputation of having some of the worst outcomes for stroke patients in the whole of western Europe.
	I was lucky enough in April to secure a Westminster Hall debate on cardiac and vascular health. May I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for honouring her commitment to answer the questions that remained outstanding at the end of the debate, and for the detailed responses that she sent me? It was during that debate that I highlighted the work of the Cardio & Vascular Coalition, which has published key recommendations for a new integrated approach to cardiac and vascular conditions for policy makers to consider.
	The 10-year national strategic framework is coming to an end but as yet we have no firm commitment from the Government to extend the strategy for a further 10 years. The British Heart Foundation, the Stroke Association, the British Cardiovascular Society and the Royal College of General Practitioners and many other smaller organisations which belong to the coalition would like the Government to give a commitment to the strategy. The 10-year mental health strategy has been renewed. Why cannot the framework strategy for cardiac and vascular health be renewed in a similar way? I await the Minister's response to the letter that I recently sent her on that point.
	Cardiovascular diseases, which include heart attack, stroke, diabetes and chronic kidney disease, affect the lives of more than 4 million people in England, cause 170,000 deaths each year, and are responsible for about one fifth of all hospital admissions. The challenge posed by those conditions is stark. Cardiac and vascular disease remains the No. 1 cause of death and disability in the United Kingdom, and strokes alone are the UK's third biggest killer—the second biggest if each type of cancer is counted separately—and the single biggest cause of severe adult disability. To our continuing embarrassment, the death rate for coronary heart disease and stroke in men and women is still higher in the UK than in comparable western European countries, and some risk factors for cardiovascular diseases, particularly obesity and a lack of physical activity, are increasing. On current trends, 60 per cent. of males and 50 per cent. of females will be obese by 2050, and, if unchecked, it is predicted that that will lead to a massive increase in type 2 diabetes, with the current trend indicating that more than 4 million people in the UK will have the condition by 2025. That, of course, will result in a large increase in the number of patients who require medication to prevent cardiac and vascular events.
	I welcome the national stroke strategy, which was launched at the end of 2007. Two central elements of the strategy are that patients should be admitted directly to a unit capable of undertaking immediate CT scanning and, where appropriate, undergo thrombolysis. It is absolutely crucial, as many contributors to this debate have said, that stroke victims are seen as quickly as possible. In that regard, I think that FAST, the new TV campaign, which has been mentioned on many occasions, has been successful. I commend the Government on their initiative in that regard.
	There is no doubt that, on the whole, hospital-based stroke services are improving and more stroke survivors have access to long-term care and support in the community. Yet, despite those developments, stroke services throughout England remain patchy and in need of considerable improvement. Sustained financial and political investment is therefore essential to maintain the momentum behind improving services that the strategy created.
	Rehabilitation and long-term support in the community remain the weakest element of the pathway for many stroke survivors. Previous investigation has found that only about half the individuals who experience a stroke receive rehabilitation that meets their needs in the first six months following discharge from hospital, with the figure falling to one fifth of individuals in the following six months. The Healthcare Commission's 2006 stroke patients survey showed that one year after discharge, more than half—about 54 per cent.—of patients said that they had not received any home help; that one third, or 32 per cent., had not received help with personal care; and that 45 per cent. had not received help with applying for benefits.
	I should like to put two questions to the Minister. First, what progress is being made in ensuring health and social care services work together to provide stroke survivors with a seamless transfer of care from hospital to the community? Secondly, what progress has been made in providing high-quality specialist rehabilitation and support for as long as a stroke survivor requires it?
	It is generally accepted that the Royal College of Physicians' national sentinel audit of stroke has provided an extremely useful tool for monitoring the implementation of standards and improvements in services in the acute sector, but there has not been a similar focus on monitoring community services for stroke survivors. Is it therefore the Government's intention to consider funding an extension to community stroke care of the RCP's auditing process?
	The operational plans for 2008-09 to 2010-11, entitled "National Planning Guidance and 'vital signs'", require PCTs to implement the stroke strategy. Monitoring will include, first, the number of patients who spend at least 90 per cent. of their time on a stroke unit and, secondly, the percentage of high-risk transient ischaemic attacks, or mini-strokes, that are treated within 24 hours. I am pleased to say that NHS Cambridgeshire, my local primary care trust, has responded positively through its newly published strategy. Indeed, as many contributors to this debate have emphasised, a key part of the strategy is prevention.
	NHS Cambridgeshire recently began a specific initiative in the 20 per cent. most deprived practices to implement vascular risk checks and proactively identify more people with risk factors for CVD who will then be added to the CVD risk register. It intends to offer practices a range of options for providing vascular risk checks to those people aged 40 to 70 years old, ranging from practices managing the vascular checks in their entirety, to working with a health adviser and community pharmacy-based provision.
	There is no doubt in my mind that in community pharmacies we have a fairly universal and readily accessible professional resource that could play a key role in an NHS health check programme. I strongly believe that community pharmacies could play a vital role in the battle against stroke by, for example, providing a regular blood pressure and cholesterol test. That new role seems to have been actively encouraged by parts of the NHS, but not universally. Some PCTs seem reluctant—through ignorance, professional opposition, lack of focus or simple tardiness—to embrace its great potential. I am delighted that NHS Cambridgeshire has alluded to the potential role of pharmacies, but it requires more than just a reference in a strategic document. A commitment to driving the concept through at ground level is vital, and I, for one, will monitor the PCT's progress.
	The PCT's strategy also means that patients will be identified with risk factors using the Framingham method, including those with post myocardial infarction and those with transient ischaemic attacks. It means also that patients alert will be utilised for GPs, indicating when preventive measures are required, in line with National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidance. The PCT will continue to make the links to smoking cessation services, with a guaranteed recording of data on lifestyle and outcomes, and it will work with the public health directorate to support prevention messages, particularly in disadvantaged areas and groups. It is also vital to make appropriate links with the cross-government strategy for tackling obesity and with prevention work, in line with vascular checks. Finally, the PCT intends to roll out the scheme in the most deprived practices first. That will be of most benefit to my constituency of North-East Cambridgeshire, which has some of the highest deprivation indices in Cambridgeshire.
	The Government say that they are committed to evaluating the implementation of the stroke strategy, but how do they plan to evaluate its implementation, when will the Department of Health commission an evaluation of progress of health, what form will it take and when can we expect the results to be made public?
	In conclusion, stroke services are improving as a result of the stroke strategy, but there is still a long way to go to meet the standards contained in the 20 quality markers. Progress has not necessarily been made at the same rate throughout the country, and, in order to maintain and build on the achievements that have been made so far, continued investment will be required. In that regard, what plans do the Government have to ensure that improvements continue to be made after the current three-year funding round ends? How will the Government ensure that stroke remains a national priority?

Kate Hoey: I am very pleased to be able to make a short contribution to the debate. I also welcome the expertise that was so clearly demonstrated by my hon. Friend the Minister, by the shadow Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), and by my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt).
	I speak not with any expertise in the matter, but as someone who has spent some time at their local hospital, Guy's and St. Thomas's, and received valuable advice from Dr. Tony Rudd. I am well aware that I am not an expert in the same sense as some of those who have already spoken, but, as a London MP, I want to look at the consultation in London—the Healthcare for London consultation entitled "The Shape of Things to Come". I welcome much of it and believe that it is in line with the Government's excellent prioritisation of stroke services. To that extent, I welcome again the national stroke strategy and the work done by the all-party stroke group and the Stroke Association. I particularly welcome the dedication shown by the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ann Keen), to the issue; it is great to have a Minister who has had hands-on experience of working in the national health service.
	As we all know, we need to develop new, high-quality stroke services in London. There are inequalities that need to be addressed, and the document will have addressed many of them. The problem arises when I come to consider my own area and the rest of south-east London. At the moment, King's college hospital and St. Thomas's hospital have very good stroke units. King's college London, the Maudsley, King's college hospital, Guy's hospital and St. Thomas's hospital are working in an admirable way; they are doing hugely valuable work right across London.
	King's college hospital and St. Thomas's hospital, together with their academic partners at King's college London, have a long history of collaboration on stroke services; that will inevitably increase as a result of the successful accreditation of King's Health Partners as an academic health science centre. The collaboration has included the primary care trusts of Lambeth and Southwark, encompassing the full pathway of stroke care, including out-of-hospital care. The two hospitals have consistently been among the highest scoring in the Royal College of Physicians national sentinel stroke audit, including the most recently published report of April 2009.
	Under the proposals, there would be one large hyper-unit at King's college hospital. Like other colleagues who have spoken, I genuinely cannot understand the rationale for going for the strict decision in favour of eight large units. As I said, I speak from a common-sense, not an expert, point of view, but to me there is no evidence that the model of very large acute stroke units with 20 to 30 beds and, say, 2,000 to 3,000 admissions a year, is a clinically effective, safe or feasible way of delivering stroke care. It has not been tested anywhere else in the world, and the vast majority of the professionals consulted during the development of the plans favoured a larger number of units—perhaps 10 to 14 throughout London—with fewer beds.
	There are concerns that big units will not make sense when so few people in London receive high-quality acute stroke care. The interim period, during which the eight high-quality units will be developed, will be a long time—a minimum of three to five years, according to what I have been told; I am thinking particularly of the units that were not established beforehand. With the best will in the world, units designated for eventual closure are bound to suffer planning blight and will quickly deteriorate to unacceptable levels through the loss of good staff to other centres and the failure to recruit new staff.
	The good units that we have at the moment will be needed to help, support and develop the increased new units. However, that will get more and more difficult if there is not the necessary flexibility, particularly if anything goes wrong or if there is a surge in demand.

Harry Cohen: My hon. Friend is making a good point. Does she agree that if a lot of investment has to go into the eight major centres, there is a danger that other, more local hospitals that have not been chosen to be hyper-units, but run good acute centres and transient ischaemic attack, or TIA, services, could be starved of the cash necessary to maintain—or, indeed, improve—their services as the money goes to the hyper-units? Is that a danger?

Kate Hoey: I welcome the increased investment that the Government are putting in, but the danger to which my hon. Friend refers is there. There is always a danger that large super-duper elements in any provision will tend to take away from what most people want, which is good local services.
	I go back to the point about central London that I made in an intervention on the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire. The consultation document's calculations for all the bed requirements do not take into account the non-resident population of London—the huge numbers of commuters from outside the city, the tourists and so on. The majority of those people come to central London. That is not to say that we do not need to improve radically the services in outer London areas, but I do not see the rationale for getting rid of the really good unit in central London—in the critical area of St. Thomas's, with its access to railway stations—to create something bigger elsewhere. King's college, Guy's and St. Thomas's hospitals are already working together, and they want to do so.
	There is a need for a radical approach to modernised stroke services in London, and much in the proposals is excellent. For example, this is the first time that standards have been set with clear requirements on the providers to deliver appropriate staffing levels. The issue, however, is about the actual model that has been chosen for London; that needs to be considered again. The people who are already working well in those hospitals and really know what is happening have not been listened to enough. NHS London needs to listen to the professionals, not entrench itself in what seems to be a fundamentalist approach. The approach needs to change; the primary care group that makes the decision in July needs to go back and make sure that it has listened and understood what is happening in the units that already do extremely good work.
	St. Thomas's serves diverse communities, which are more likely to be in need of a stroke unit. It also deals with commuters and all the tourists who come to central London. It has the expertise. The idea is to let that go to create a bigger unit at King's college hospital. Why do we not allow the two hospitals to plan and work out together what is in the best interests of the area? I hope that those making the decision at the end of the consultation will listen. If I had to choose between the expertise of Dr. Tony Rudd and that of members of the primary care trust, I know whom I would support.

Andrew Murrison: I start by recognising the improvements that have been made to stroke services in recent years. There has, of course, been a gradual improvement since the war, but the focus on strokes has increased in the past few years. A great deal of the credit for that must go to our clinical networks, health care professionals and the research community. I say that particularly because 25 years ago I trained in a national health service that did not regard strokes as a particular priority. The hon. Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt), who is no longer in her place, reflected on the standard of care and the expectations of stroke patients that prevailed at that time, and that put me in mind of the sorts of cases that I came across. It was all particularly to the disadvantage of older people; classically, elderly stroke victims have tended to be put to one side. I am pleased to note that that tends not to be the case these days, but there is perhaps some complacency, and a danger of forgetting that the elderly are still not given the priority that they deserve. Stroke, given that it is classically a condition that is more likely with advancing years, is a case in point.
	Having marked the improvement in standards that has prevailed over the past few years, we must also recognise that it took rather a long time for the Government to come up with their national stroke strategy—some 10 years—and it required a bit of prompting by way of the 2005 National Audit Office report, "Reducing Brain Damage: Faster access to better stroke care". I may be a pedant, but I think that the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) was a little hasty in suggesting that the national stroke strategy had had demonstrable effects. It may well have had, and I suspect that it will be effective, but we must be careful about making premature assertions that are not firmly rooted in the evidence.

Greg Mulholland: I am not aware that I used the word "demonstrable". In fact, I was referring to improvements mentioned in the audits, so they come from evidence, not opinion. That is an important point to make.

Andrew Murrison: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but he needs to understand that there is a danger in extrapolating evidence from the sentinel study—I think that that is the one that he was citing—which came out just a few months after the implementation of the national strategy. Given that it is a 10-year strategy, and given previous trends, it would be extremely rash to suppose that it had had any effect at the time of the sentinel audit. I very much hope that the strategy will prove to be successful—I suspect that it will—but we need to be a bit careful about the language that we use in anticipation of that.
	It is important to compare this country's outcomes and incidence of disease with those nations with which we can reasonably be compared. In this context, I think particularly of western Europe. Standardised death rates from stroke among men under the age of 64 are nine per 100,000 in the UK compared with seven per 100,000 in France. The equivalent figures for women are seven deaths per 100,000 in the UK compared with four per 100,000 in France and in Spain. The UK has some of the worst outcomes for patients in western Europe. In one study, the differences between the UK and eight other European countries in terms of the proportion of patients left dead or dependent were between 150 and 300 events per 1,000 patients. That statistical material is rather technical stuff, but it points towards patients in Britain not doing as well as they have a right to expect, and it certainly suggests that there is no room for complacency.
	The Minister spoke about health checks and vascular risk assessments and invited the Opposition to support those initiatives. I have campaigned for many years for screening for abdominal aortic aneurysm, yet despite recommendations by the National Screening Committee we still do not have a credible roll-out of national screening for that particular condition. The Government need to be careful; interventions in the public health sphere, particularly in terms of prevention, need to be based on the evidence, which points towards instituting a screening programme expeditiously. I very much regret that that has not been done.
	What has changed over the past few years with stroke? It has gone from being a condition with chronicity to one that is seen as existing within the acute sector. It has become a medical emergency; of course, it always was, but it was not recognised as such. Unfortunately, as the Stroke Association observes, it is still not necessarily seen as a condition that requires immediate treatment and management—neither by potential patients nor, sometimes alarmingly, by health care professionals on the front line. That has been clearly shown by NOP and MORI polling over the past few years.
	Since the figures came out in October 2008, we have had the Department of Health campaign. We have all seen the television adverts that are part of that, which have been extremely good. The images are disturbing, but it is sometimes necessary to be fairly hard-hitting in order to change attitudes and behaviour. We will have to see whether the effects of that campaign are enduring. I was concerned to hear the hon. Member for Crawley, who has some experience in these matters, suggest that in a few years' time, when the funding runs out, we might simply move on to the next hot topic. Our approach needs to be a bit more long-term than that. As we have seen with road traffic campaigns, there is a danger that when we go on to the next topic we forget the public health messages that have been put across effectively, at least in the short term. That would be a great pity in the context of stroke. There have been a few measures of the campaign's effectiveness—for example, the Stroke Association has said that it has had more inquiries since the campaign kicked off in February. However, I should like the Minister to clarify what assessment the Government intend to make of its enduring effectiveness, which would, I hope, inform any future campaigns.
	If we are serious about public health and dealing with health inequalities, we have to address stroke, which is far more prevalent in less advantaged groups in our society, as well as in certain ethnic groups. We need to try to work out why that is and put in place measures to reduce that inequality. In my intervention on the Minister, I mentioned the effects of stroke on the rural poor. It is bad being poor, but it is particularly bad in a rural location where access to services is extremely difficult. Following my intervention, and that of my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), I wonder whether the Minister has had any note from the Box about upgrading stroke from category B to category A, which is being considered by the Department's emergency call prioritisation group; if not, perhaps it would be possible to communicate separately on that subject. Such a step might be a way of improving access for people with stroke who live in rural areas.
	There is evidence that someone's chances of optimal management for stroke are best if they arrive at hospital by ambulance. However, according to the sentinel audit, only 17 per cent. of patients reach a stroke unit within four hours of arrival at hospital. I suspect that further work needs to be done in accident and emergency to improve triage and expedite the definitive management of stroke patients. That appears to be especially required at weekends, as, crucially, the chance of getting a scan, and therefore definitive treatment, is very much less out of hours.

Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech. A brain scan should take place within three hours, and it will determine the outcome for stroke victims, so it is absolutely essential. Will he at least give the Government credit for their policy of trying to ensure that stroke victims get taken by ambulance straight to a specialist centre rather than to a general hospital so that they can get that treatment early, which will improve outcomes for them?

Andrew Murrison: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I will deal with the question of specialist units versus district general hospitals in the remainder of my speech. However, his remarks spark me to reflect on the change in radiological protocols that has occurred in recent years. There has been a strong trend towards reducing the amount of elective work that is done out of hours. For example, it is now difficult to get a chest X-ray out of hours unless it is a real emergency, and very few are defined as emergencies requiring imaging. That is fine—it is absolutely right—but I sometimes wonder whether we have gone a little too far. I suspect that as part of the process, there is less willingness to do CT scans on stroke patients out of hours. We need to look again at our protocols to ensure that a medical emergency is investigated as such, 24/7.

Harry Cohen: The hon. Gentleman made a good point about the need to improve triage at the hospital to which a patient is taken, including at the weekend. Although there has been an improvement in ambulance services, does he believe that one missing element of the stroke service is a review of whether we can get further improvements, so that ambulances get to patients quickly and get them to the main centres quickly? Does he think that there is a case for that?

Andrew Murrison: Yes, and I understand that the Minister's Department is doing that work at the moment. It is reviewing whether we should upgrade from category B from category A—from 18 minutes to nine minutes—the response time for stroke cases. It will be interesting to learn the outcome of that work. I suspect that part of the reason for the effectiveness of arriving by ambulance rather than under one's own steam, and the likelihood of getting prompter treatment when arriving by ambulance, is that triages are undertaken by ambulance crews. They are therefore able to warn specialist stroke units that a patient will be arriving. Across a range of clinical areas we find that such warning expedites admission to specialist units, as patients do not have to go through the sieve of accident and emergency and the inevitable delay that is caused. I have some first-hand experience of that.
	Stroke services are somewhat patchy across the country. A postcode lottery applies, despite the fact that we have a national health service. The Stroke Association is concerned about that, as is the Royal College of Physicians, and the sentinel audit underscores that concern. In my own area, I find to my delight that according to the audit, the Royal United hospital and Salisbury hospital are reckoned to be good. However, my constituents go much further afield on occasion, and I find that Yeovil, Bristol, Weston and Gloucester are okay, but that Taunton and interestingly Swindon have much room for improvement.
	I caution against the evidence that has accrued about the use of specialist centres being used to favour large centres at the expense of district general hospitals. Stroke is not an obscure disease, it is a condition that strikes somebody in England every five minutes and the third most common cause of death in this country. The hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), who is no longer in his place, talked about critical mass, which is important in the case of tertiary services. Nobody doubts that a patient should go to a tertiary unit for obscure conditions. Stroke is not unusual, it is bread and butter for district general hospitals. If it were removed from their responsibility, one would wonder about the foundations of the district hospital model. Quite honestly, a condition that causes the third most deaths in this country and sadly provides a patient every five minutes in England must be part of the underpinning of any acute service and part of its bread and butter.
	The investigation and treatment of stroke is not particularly complicated. In saying that, I do not underplay in any way the expertise of those who specialise in it. It relies upon a CT scanner—we are working towards a position where pretty well every hospital will have one—and access to telemedicine. In other words, a particular hospital does not necessarily need a specialist, because the information can be relayed and, crucially, a diagnosis made in that way. The treatment itself should not be beyond any acute unit in this country.

Andrew Lansley: My hon. Friend will not have had an opportunity to look up the figures before responding to the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink), but the latest figures in the sentinel audit clearly demonstrate that Southend hospital had the best results anywhere in the east of England.

Andrew Murrison: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have noted that with some pleasure.
	We need to be careful about using a Darzi extrapolation to the point where we lose immediacy and patient access. I speak as somebody who represents small towns and a rural area in Wiltshire. So far as I am able to gauge my constituents' wishes—we have all had some opportunity to gauge interest on a range of subjects over the past few days—it seems to me that what they want is local services, locally provided, unless there is very good reason why not. Our national health service should be designed around their needs and wishes rather than necessarily the convenience of practitioners or how they want to operate.
	Stroke is a good case in point, because there is no real reason why we cannot provide both diagnosis and treatment in a specialist context within district general hospitals. It would be a real pity if we were to rusticate stroke services to our great clinical cathedrals in our larger urban centres. London has been discussed at length today, and those services should not be restricted to a small number of hyper-acute units in the capital.

Andrew Slaughter: I shall begin by talking about some improvements in stroke services. From that, my hon. Friend the Minister can see where my speech will go towards the end.
	I make no apology for continuing to talk about London services, the increased investment in which is welcome. There has been £23 million of additional spending on stroke services, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) said. There is a predicted increase in survival rates of some 25 per cent. Notwithstanding the fact that, as he said, some deliberate misinformation has been put about by Opposition parties—I shall say something about that in a moment—it is interesting that all parties have taken on board the central point about the creation of hyper-acute stroke units.
	I tend to agree with what the Opposition have said about the strict adherence to numbers. The idea that specialist stroke treatment will be a major factor in saving lives over the next few years was initially received with some scepticism, but in the light of overwhelming clinical evidence it has now been widely accepted, which is a good thing.
	Like others, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister for her contribution, not only in her professional capacity and as a Minister but as my neighbouring MP. I was very pleased to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the NHS with her late last year at Charing Cross hospital, where she herself has worked and in which she continues to have a great interest and support me. The Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), who was briefly in his place, has been extremely helpful with regard to the difficulties that I have experienced in the current consultation.
	Finally, I pay tribute to the Stroke Association, which others have mentioned. It has done an excellent job in its recent report and in encouraging the Government and giving them praise where it is due. I do not say that only because when its staff were testing blood pressure in Portcullis House last month, they said that I had the blood pressure of a young man. I think is the only thing that I can claim to have about me that is of a young man.
	The current consultation ended on 8 May, and it has been mentioned several times this afternoon. The matter has been shockingly handled by Healthcare for London. I shall start by dealing with my simpler concern: the stroke unit at Ealing hospital. If the current proposals are implemented, that stroke unit will be closed. When I spoke to the neurologists and other professionals at Ealing, I found it was envisaged that the alternative provision would be at either Northwick Park or Charing Cross hospitals. Things have now moved on, and there is a worse plan. However, even at that stage, there was serious concern and some astonishment at such a proposal. I could speak for a long time about that one issue, and I am sure that other hon. Members could present arguments for hospitals in their constituencies or those nearby, which their constituents use extensively.
	Ealing hospital stroke unit provides good care, has just been refurbished to a high standard and is in the top 25 per cent. of stroke units in the country. It is by no means clear from the current proposal how the many people from the borough of Ealing and around who use the unit will be accommodated in future. There is no evidence that the capacity problems arising from the stroke unit's removal will be picked up by the alternative proposals. However, at least the proposal for Ealing is clear. The unit is to close and there is to be alternative provision. I repeat that the case for the need to hone provision to eight units and the case for their location have not been well made, but at least the decision is clear, if incorrect.
	The position of Charing Cross hospital, which is just outside my current constituency, but extensively used by my constituents, is far from clear. There is a proposal no longer to have one of the new hyper-acute stroke units there in the longer term. To avoid doubt and to be brief, I can do no better than read out part of my submission to the consultation. I said:
	"I do not accept that this consultation has been properly or transparently conducted and I believe the outcome of it—certainly as far as it affects my constituents—has been pre-determined."
	The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) made that point earlier. My submission continued:
	"I remain hopeful that I am wrong in this surmise, but if I am not I hope there may be some challenge, legal or otherwise to the proposals Healthcare for London are currently recommending for Charing Cross Hospital.
	Specifically, there is no clarity as to the process by which the preferred location of the fourth major trauma centre was switched at short notice from Charing Cross to St. Mary's Hospital. This having been done however, there is a preferred option for St. Mary's stated in the document with an attached footnote that the transfer of the hyper-acute stroke unit (HASU), currently proposed for Charing Cross, will in the space of two to three years follow the trauma centre to St. Mary's. I have spoken to clinicians at Charing Cross who believe this is the wrong course of action both in clinical and geographical terms. But this aspect of the proposal does not appear to be open for discussion. Rather it is the settled view of Healthcare for London that co-location is the sine qua non in deciding the location of this HASU.
	I do not see how Healthcare for London expect serious responses to such proposals which have all the appearance of being last minute, botched and above all so closely interconnected as to be incapable of being unravelled. I do not think the logistics of moving stroke and neurology services from Charing Cross to St. Mary's have been properly studied: the site, the funding and the relative size and importance of the clinical units at both hospitals strongly suggest the better option is building on the excellent provision currently at Charing Cross.
	I would like to be reassured that if as expected a HASU opens at Charing Cross later this year, if the proposal to move this to St. Mary's in 2012 or shortly thereafter is pursued there will be a full and impartial consultation at that time."
	The well respected and extensive stroke services at Charing Cross were to be combined with one of the major trauma centres for London, but the quality of the trauma bid was apparently not good enough, as was the case with the Royal Free, in which my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon has a constituency interest. Rather than those two bids being resubmitted, at short notice the trauma centre bid was switched to St. Mary's and that is now the preferred bid. It has been admitted to me in several meetings with health care professionals, the hospital trusts, the primary care trust, Healthcare for London and, indeed, the Under-Secretary, that it is a done deal: St. Mary's will be the trauma centre.
	Suddenly, as an afterthought, and done by asterisk and footnote in the consultation document, and clearly because the co-location proposal is sacrosanct, the stroke unit at Charing Cross, which is currently being prepared and will open, function and doubtless be extremely good for two years, will somehow move to the St. Mary's site, which is inappropriate. There is no provision for it and clinicians to whom I have spoken doubt whether there are funds for it. The proposal is a dog's breakfast, for want of a better phrase.
	There may be a guarantee of further consultation in future. That is not good enough. I have made the point strongly to the chief executive of Healthcare for London that no proper consultation has been carried out—that is clear from the document—and the matter needs to be revisited. Clearly, decisions have been made and put out for consultation thereafter.
	One of the unfortunate side effects is the mischief that can be made, and mischief aplenty has been made with the future of Charing Cross hospital for more than four years. It is a perfect site for a hospital; it is perfectly accessible. The decision affects not only constituents in Hammersmith and Fulham and Ealing but those in the entire London boroughs of Hounslow and Ealing and the wider area of west London, to whom Charing Cross is far more accessible than St. Mary's. The site is large, with plenty of room for redevelopment, which is already taking place. However, the botched decisions, the poor quality of decision making and the lack of information allow mischief to be made.
	There have been persistent rumours of downgrading or closure since 2005. The hospital was a major issue in the general election campaign. It suits the Conservative party locally to continue to keep those rumours alive and I have therefore been in conversation and correspondence with successive Health Ministers since I was elected to get assurances about the future of Charing Cross hospital. Those assurances are freely and readily given, and I have a copy here of the latest letter from the chief executive of NHS London, which is dated 29 May.
	The letter states that even if the hyper-acute stroke unit moves in due course from Charing Cross, the
	"stroke unit at Charing Cross hospital will be enhanced to deliver high quality stroke services for the people of Hammersmith and Fulham. We expect Charing Cross to retain a full range of services as a busy hospital for local residents maintaining its prominent position in the community."
	The letter goes on to say that the hospital will provide
	"a broad range of elective specialist services, as well as emergency services with the associated medical specialties, and an active A&E. It will continue to provide neurology and stroke services, including post 72-hour stroke care, rehabilitation and outpatient services."
	The chief executive could have added that one of the largest and most ambitious polyclinics is being built there, with a full GP practice on the side, in addition to many other new buildings, including the highly prestigious Maggie's cancer centre, which was visited by Sarah Brown and Michelle Obama on the President's recent visit. There is therefore no question but that Charing Cross has a bright and expanding future, with or without the hyper-acute stoke unit and trauma centre. Again, let me make it clear for the record that the Government are to be praised for that investment. In addition, since the formation of the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust and the Academic Health Science Centre, the prospects for health care in west London have never been better.
	However, the chief executive and the Minister can write as many letters to me as they wish, but what my constituents believe—because they are told so every fortnight in the only local newspaper in wide circulation, which is controlled by the Conservative council—is that Charing Cross is being downgraded or closed. That is deliberate disinformation, exactly as my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon said, put out with mischievous political intent by the Conservatives. However, they would not be able to do so were it not for the administrative confusion, complacency and lack of attention by health service managers in London.
	There is now a ridiculous conflict of interest, whereby the managements of the Conservative local authority and the local health service have fused. Therefore, the person who is charged locally, as the chief executive of what was called the PCT, with rebutting the accusation that the health service is not receiving investment, is being downgraded and is in decline, is exactly the same person putting out the propaganda saying that it is. The situation is quite surreal. I have raised the matter with Healthcare for London, but it prefers to make no comment. Just as in Hendon, where one part of the NHS is briefing against another, we now have a chief executive of the local authority who damns the health service in the morning and then, as the chief executive of the health service, tries to defend or praise it in the afternoon.
	That cannot be allowed to continue, because at bottom it affects my constituent's confidence in the local health service, which is excellent and improving. In my opinion, the only solution is to abandon at least those parts of the consultation that are discredited and were never consulted on in the first place, and which can only lead to a conclusion that is at best inadequate and at worst detrimental to patient care. I would ask my hon. Friend in responding to this debate to say that she will ask Healthcare for London to look at the situation again, because it is not satisfactory for us to go forward with, on the whole, an excellent proposal for stroke and trauma care—one that will improve services and save lives—without the certainty that things are being done with honesty and integrity, and in a way that will not confuse or undermine the health service in west London or people's opinion of it.

Richard Taylor: Let me start by declaring an interest, in that I am very much in the age group of those who can expect to suffer a stroke at some time in the not-too-distant future. I support the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) and have visited the stroke unit at St. Thomas's, which is absolutely excellent, and I would be delighted to go there, if I had to.
	I will be as brief as I can and cover just three aspects, the first of which is emergency calls. It is crucial that emergency calls are taken seriously by all facilities—that is, by the ambulance people as well as by the doctors. I have long argued in favour of having another telephone number in addition to 999 for those who do not think that they are an acute emergency, but would like advice. That is particularly important for someone who gets a transient ischaemic attack, but then gets better and does not know what to do. It would be useful if they had another number that they could contact easily, which would tell them that such an attack is a serious warning that they have to act on.
	Let me turn to stroke care networks. I would like the Minister to tell me in her winding-up speech what her idea of the stroke care network is. An article in the 21 May edition of the  Health Service Journal entitled "Sink or Swim" deals with the importance of district general hospitals to local communities. We should be considering two different kinds of stroke unit, namely larger units in major centres and local units, which are crucial for sorting out people with transient ischaemic attacks and with strokes that do not necessarily need thrombolysis. NHS East of England has already been referred to in the debate, and it is mentioned in the article:
	"Many district general hospitals are keen to retain core emergency services. NHS East of England has committed to retaining A&E and consultant led obstetrics at all its trusts and thrombolysis for stroke patients, at least part of the time."
	It seems possible to have pretty widespread local stroke units that will deal with all forms of stroke, with a number of them being able to give thrombolysis as well. At this point, I must refer to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence's technology appraisal, which is mandatory. It states:
	"The Committee was aware that in the UK, physicians with experience in stroke care are not always the same as those specialised in neurological care. The Committee concluded that alteplase"—
	the clot-buster—
	"should be used by a physician trained and experienced in the management of acute stroke and only in centres with facilities that enable it to be used in full accordance with its marketing authorisation."
	That sets quite a high target for the stroke units that will be providing that therapy, but it is something that we should aim for. We have already heard that the time limit for administering that treatment is exactly three hours. For a patient to get to a unit, have the scan and receive the treatment within three hours is enormously demanding. That is why I hope that, as well as there being networks, some of the local units will also be able to provide thrombolysis, at least part of the time.
	Speaking from an out-of-London perspective, I believe that transport is also crucial. If the major stroke centres are to be located only in a few places, we are going to need to use the air ambulance service much more than we do at the moment. That raises the question of when the Government are going to consider making some sort of contribution to running air ambulances.
	I hope that the local stroke units will become widespread, but I must point out the necessity of their each having a complete team. They will need not only doctors and nurses but, as has been pointed out many times, speech therapists. Unless things have changed in the past few months, speech therapists are almost as rare as hens' teeth. The units will also need physiotherapists and occupational therapists, but they, too, are shortage specialties. Rehabilitation is essential for the long-term care of people with strokes when one has not been able to prevent the completion of the stroke.
	Finally, the Next Stage review recognises the risk that reconfiguration can make services fall down. The Under-Secretary of State in the House of Lords has made it clear that we must never reconfigure until alternatives are in place, otherwise there will be an untenable gap.

Brooks Newmark: I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor). I want to begin my speech on a personal note. My father-in-law, Sir John Keegan, had a stroke four weeks ago. He survived due to the swift response of his local ambulance service and the immediate care that he received at Salisbury district hospital in the critical first three hours following his stroke. I want to thank the doctors and nurses in the Farley unit at Salisbury district hospital for all their after-care in the past four weeks. In particular, my mother-in-law, Susanne, my wife, Lucy, my brothers-in-law, Tom and Matthew, and my sister-in-law, Rose, share my gratitude.
	As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison)—in whose constituency my in-laws live—stroke is the country's third largest killer. It is also the single largest cause of adult disability, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (John Bercow) at the beginning of the debate. We all have constituents who have been affected and I suspect that most of us may have experienced a stroke within our own families, as I did recently. Yet for too long, strokes have been the poor relation in the NHS, so I welcome the long overdue national stroke strategy of 2007, which finally prioritised stroke care for health and social care providers. Our response needs to be commensurate with the sheer size of the problem.
	The strategy has undoubtedly brought progress, but we must not stand still on the issue. Not enough patients are receiving the treatment and care that they need quickly enough and too many are subject to a dangerous postcode lottery. Inequalities in access to stroke units and long-term care all too often mean that where people live can dramatically affect the length of recovery from a stroke—or even whether they recover at all.
	If we want to improve stroke services, we must focus essentially on three elements: first, saving lives in hospital; secondly, reducing disabilities and long-term damage; and, thirdly, preventing strokes altogether. Speed is of the essence with a stroke. A scan and early treatment within the first three hours can, as we have heard, make the difference between complete recovery, a lifelong disability or even life at all. For example, a brain scan will crucially confirm the diagnosis of someone admitted to hospital. For people with ischaemic strokes, swift thrombolysis or treatment with clot-busting drugs within three hours will significantly reduce the chances of dying, yet last year, only 0.8 per cent. of patients received thrombolysis.
	I know that having a specialist stroke unit can do much to improve survival rates and recovery times for stroke patients. Commendably, early access to a stroke unit has improved significantly since 2006. However, in 2008, one quarter of patients were still not being offered this service—a service that I know, through personal experience, really can make a difference. As our population ages, the demand for these specialist units can only grow, so we must ensure that we can cope.
	Having swift and high-quality stroke services from day one makes sense for our country's financial health, too. Caring for stroke patients currently costs the UK about £7 billion each year because of the long-term implications of a stroke and the detrimental effects of delays in treatment. Given that about a third of stroke survivors will be left with a moderate to severe disability, long-term social care is often a necessity, not a luxury. However, the Stroke Association says that rehabilitation and long-term care in the community is one of the weakest elements of a stroke survivor's pathway. Only around half of those who have experienced a stroke receive the necessary rehabilitation in the first six months following discharge from hospital, which falls to a fifth in the following six months.
	The transition from hospital back to the community can also be extremely difficult. Not only do about a third of stroke survivors have communication difficulties— including, as highlighted in the Stroke Association's recent "Lost without Words" campaign, aphasia and speech impacts—but many experience a loss of confidence and independence as they struggle to regain their basic capabilities and rebuild their lives.
	I am pleased that as part of the national stroke strategy, every local authority now receives a ring-fenced grant of around £100,000 a year for stroke services. However, I believe that the scheme is currently intended for only three years, so just as services are really starting to make a difference, I fear they may be shut down for lack of long-term financial support.
	Finally, it is not enough to just to treat the symptom of the problem, as its cause is also important. We can reduce the likelihood of a stroke through preventive work on high blood pressure, irregular heartbeats and smoking, for example. That alone could prevent thousands of strokes each year, saving not only many families from having to watch a loved one suffer, but millions of pounds each year in care costs. For progress on stroke services, we must look carefully at three elements: the urgency of immediate health care; the long-term nature of recovery; and the opportunity to prevent strokes in future. Only if we can weave those into a more seamless approach, applied evenly regardless of where the patient lives, can we say that we are doing the best for the thousands of stroke sufferers each and every year.

Harry Cohen: I appreciate being given a few minutes to contribute to the debate, especially as I missed the opening speeches, for which I apologise to those on the Front Benches.
	I praise the Government for the improvement that they have tried to make in stroke care. The service in the NHS has been patchy and unsatisfactory for too long, and that is not what is needed in a modern health service. The national stroke strategy and the efforts in relation to hyper-acute centres are moving it in the right direction. A consultation process has taken place in London, including my area of north-east London. As part of that consultation, I have written to express my dissatisfaction about the way in which Whipps Cross hospital, in my constituency, was treated. It had a good case for being a hyper-acute centre—better than that for Queen's hospital and the Royal London, which were the ones chosen. The decision has been made on the basis of having two locations, and Whipps Cross has missed out unfairly in that regard.
	A lot of money will be needed to bring Queen's and the Royal London up to a decent standard, and it is important that local hospitals such as Whipps Cross are not starved of moneys to run a good acute and TIA service. As money is pumped into the chosen centres, that is a risk. The Minister and NHS London must take on board the point that good local provision of acute and TIA services is still needed.
	In my intervention on the hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison), I made a point about ambulance services. Further improvements are needed to enable ambulance services to act promptly, and perhaps we need to look at traffic arrangements to ensure that ambulances get to centres on time for patients. The hon. Gentleman made a crucial point about the need for triage efficiency at A and E centres to deal with people as soon as they come in.
	The hon. Gentleman also made a good point about acute services taking advantage of investment in telecommunication links—for instance, to enable people who have reported there to get treatment without having to go off to the hyper-acute centre. That needs improvement, and the expertise needs to be in local hospitals.
	In north-east London, another plan being considered includes the option of a reduction in beds. That would be wrong for stroke care, because the beds are needed for rehabilitation of patients. In a proper stroke care model, there is no case for a reduction in beds.
	Improved rehab and community stroke care provision, which remain weak, are needed. We have talked about NHS provision for stroke patients being patchy, but that in local authorities is even patchier: some are good; others are not, or they set high criteria to be met before giving help. A good look at what local authorities do is necessary, and they should be helped to provide such support in conjunction with the local NHS.
	Only half of people get rehab in the first six months after having a stroke, which is too low a figure. As has been mentioned, the figure falls to a fifth in the next six months, which is not satisfactory. Only a third of patients in England benefit from early discharge support, which enables them to be rehabilitated in their own homes. That position needs to be improved substantially. I think I am right in saying that according to figures provided by the Stroke Association, only 12 per cent. of people who experience communication difficulties following a stroke are given speech therapy, and I believe that only 6 per cent. of people in London receive such support. Much more needs to be done in that regard.
	My last point about rehab and community stroke care concerns people who suffer transient ischaemic attacks. Because of the fear that they will go on to suffer a major stroke, those people need to be seen within 24 hours, but I understand that at present only 45 per cent. of them are seen within that time. It has been estimated that if the figure were 100 per cent., which is the Government's target under the national stroke strategy, the number of people subsequently suffering full strokes would fall by as much as 80 per cent.
	There are many issues surrounding hyper-acute centres, acute centres and TIA services in the more local hospitals. While the Government are pushing ahead with the centres and trying to improve the service, they must not lose sight of local provision, which I believe can play a very important role. By that I mean provision either by local hospitals or by local authorities in conjunction with the NHS. A great deal of credit is due to the Government, but there is much more to be done, and they should not forget that local role.

Ann Keen: I thank all Members who have contributed to this important debate. I am particularly grateful for the way in which they congratulated the Government. Of course we all recognise that there is more to be done, but by bringing us together the debate has demonstrated that consensus across the House is a vital ingredient if we are to make progress on an issue as important as stroke. I acknowledge again the important work of the all-party parliamentary group on stroke and the contribution that it has made.
	We are tackling all the work that needs to be done through the stroke improvement programme and the stroke care networks that it set up. The strategy is a 10-year plan, and there are no simplistic quick fixes to bring about the improvements that we want to see. We are the first to acknowledge that there is a long way to go.
	In the short time available to me I shall respond to as many as possible of the points that have been raised, but if, as is likely, I fail to respond to all of them, I shall of course write to Members and ensure that all their points have been properly addressed.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt) shared her experience with us, telling us how stroke patients had been treated in the past. Let us ensure that it definitely is the past. I, too, acknowledge the work done by David Davis with the South East Coast ambulance service: it is well known and recognised in the Department.
	London Members in particular, including my hon. Friends the Members for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) and for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Slaughter), have raised the scare stories that have been put about concerning closures that will not, in fact, take place, for instance at Barnet, Finchley and Charing Cross. I am more than familiar with that debate. No wonder the local community is engaged in the debate over Charing Cross. As long ago as 1992, when the then Conservative Government introduced the internal market, it was said that the market would decide whether Charing Cross or Hammersmith would stay open. There is no closure of Charing Cross; there will be no closure of Charing Cross. Imperial college is making sure that all the services that are coming from the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust are of the highest possible standard, but I note what has been said about the consultation, which ended on 8 May. Announcements are due on 20 July, I believe. If the process still needs to be looked and monitored in any way, I know that Members will make their views known to me. I will do my best to ensure that NHS London is aware of the debate and how that has progressed.
	The hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) asked about the category for stroke. I have some information to share, but our discussions will continue. The software used to telephone-triage patients has recently been updated and is being rolled out across ambulance trusts. The new version includes questions based on the face, arm, speech test for stroke. Any patients with positive FAST symptoms will get a category A response, with a target to reach them within eight minutes.
	We have heard many comments, including comments based on personal experience from the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark). I wish the family well. I am sure all of us would want to do the same.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) again pointed out with regard to the consultation the important work that takes place at St. Thomas's and at Guy's. I also commend St. Thomas's hospital, which Members consider to be their local hospital. The work that is done by Dr. Holmes and his team is excellent.
	The hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) looked in particular at BME groups and how checks are being made. Efforts are being made to target that population in particular so that they go for those all-important health checks. Most Members have been gracious enough to say that that is good work. We are continuing down that line.
	Points have been raised by Members covering many situations. Out-of-hours services were again raised by the hon. Member for Westbury. Imaging was mentioned, as was the importance of out-of-hours work and seven-day-a-week, 24-hour imaging. It is critical that that happens. We are looking at the development of the professions and the training that will be required to achieve that. Incorporating telemedicine in the way the hon. Gentleman mentioned is important. Many areas are starting to do that.
	It is critical, as we continue with the 10-year strategy, that stroke is a No. 1 priority for the NHS, providing extra funding and establishing the local stroke networks. We are firmly aiming at a revolution in stroke services over the next few years, which I believe we will see. The House will work together on that important issue. Members will be aware that it is important that all the matters that have been raised are addressed, but the consultation, the reconfiguration and the specialist units will continue. I thank Members for their contributions to the debate today.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Resolved,
	That this House has considered the matter of stroke services.
	 Sitting suspended (Standing Order No. 20).

Leeds City Council Bill  (By Order )

Second Reading

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before I call the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (John Battle), I wish to inform Members that I believe that it will be for the convenience of the House if we debate the Leeds City Council Bill, the Nottingham City Council Bill and the Reading Borough Council Bill together. I also wish to remind Members of the rulings I have given on the previous occasions when this substantive matter has been before the House. As three Bills that bear a considerable likeness to those before the House today have gone through, it seems to me to be in our best interests to make progress in the determination of the House's view on the Bills before us today so that there can, more or less, be parity of treatment in later stages of proceedings, as I understand that some of the promoters of the Bills may wish to propose detailed amendments if the House grants these Bills a Committee stage.

John Battle: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
	This Bill follows on from other Bills that have already been debated at length. We have discussed the purposes of the Bills and the definitions of pedlars and street traders, and I do not intend to rehearse those arguments—I abide by your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) cannot be with us today as, sadly, he is unwell; we wish him well. He said in our last deliberations:
	"There is much in these Bills that is not controversial, is of common interest, and will be supported by Members in all parts of the House."—[ Official Report, 21 April 2009; Vol. 491, c. 197.]
	I hope we can proceed in that spirit this afternoon.
	On the Leeds Bill, the problems the city faces in these matters are similar to those faced by other cities with strong, dynamic centres: the difficulties of enforcing street-trading legislation against people who are, effectively, acting as street traders but under the guise of pedlars. These people cause great resentment among licensed street traders, who pay significant sums for their licences, and among retailers, who pay rent and rates. Following on from the publication of the Durham university report and, not least, taking into account the long deliberations in this House, Leeds city council suggests an amendment that will be formally made in Committee if its Bill proceeds today, as I hope it will. The amendment would enable pedlars to continue to trade in most areas of the city as long as they do not use stalls or other physical means of support; that is subject to a clear definition. That is a significant, practical and workable concession as a result of this House's deliberations and comments made in the other place.
	I should like to refer to the results of two court cases against illegal street traders in the city of Leeds that came before magistrates on 15 May this year as examples that drive home why Leeds needs this Bill. The first offender did not attend the court and the case was proved. He was fined just £50, with £350 costs. The second offender attended the court and pleaded guilty to six counts of illegal street trading, but due to outstanding fines and costs for other matters he was given a conditional discharge for one year and no order for costs. From both those cases we could conclude that the current arrangements are ineffective and make it worth while for illegal street traders to carry on their activities because they are safe in the knowledge that any sanctions are unlikely to result in any financial deterrent.
	In a similar case before the courts, proceedings were taken against an illegal flower seller who had seriously undermined the business of others in the city. It is therefore clear that businesses can be undermined by such illegal activities. Those examples illustrate that Leeds has an enforcement problem in relation to illegal street traders.

Philip Davies: As always, the right hon. Gentleman is a powerful advocate for Leeds. I represent the neighbouring district of Bradford and in particular Shipley, and I have a concern. If this is such a big problem in Leeds and is to be dealt with at a Leeds level, what reassurance can be given that the problem will not simply move across the boundary to Shipley or the wider Bradford district? Would it not be better to tackle this problem from a national perspective, rather than looking after the interests of Leeds alone?

John Battle: I shall simply make two points to the hon. Gentleman. First, the Durham report suggests that there could be local, rather than national, solutions to this problem. We take that on board, and I respect the Durham report. Secondly, I walk regularly from my constituency to his, which is 12 miles along the Leeds and Liverpool canal. One has to go through my constituency and a few others to get to his, so if the problem were to migrate out of the city centre, it would come into my neighbourhood first. I have no intention of seeing the problem simply migrate, and I hope he would accept that reassurance.
	The amendment to be proposed by Leeds takes on board the Durham research published earlier this year that suggests that there is no evidence to support the removal of the pedlars' exemption from the national street trading regime. This proposal aims simply to get a grip on the streets in the centre and those who, as it were, pretend that they are engaged in street trading when they are really engaged in peddling—the amendment will help to achieve that. I hope that Members on both sides of this House will give this modest Bill a fair wind and that the amendment might help others too. Let us get this Bill through its Second Reading and into Committee. Let us iron out the details and let us give the councils the enforcement help that they need, because that is the crucial issue at this stage.

Philip Davies: First, may I make an apology on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), who is unwell? He has a detached retina, which has been incredibly painful. I know that he was very keen to be here to continue debating these matters, but unfortunately he is not able to attend. I can report that he is well on the way to recovery. Although it will not be much longer before he is back in the House, I am sure that we will all miss him in this particular debate.
	I accept the ruling that you made at the start, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and my intention is not to delay the House unduly, but it is important to go through some of the arguments. It would be fair to begin by praising the people in Leeds and Reading, who have shown a great desire to compromise, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (John Battle) said. They have looked at the issue, listened to the debate as the Bills have gone through the House and agreed to address some of the legitimate concerns raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. I therefore see no reason why the Bills that relate specifically to Leeds and Reading should not be agreed to fairly readily.

Martin Salter: I genuinely thank the hon. Gentleman for reaching out across the House. Does he acknowledge that, just as Labour Members are not seeking to restrict unduly the legitimate work of legal pedlars, we are deeply concerned about people using our ancient pedlar procedure as a flag of convenience to undermine legitimate traders who pay hard cash for their market stalls?

Philip Davies: I appreciate the points made by the hon. Gentleman, who is, again, a powerful advocate for his town. We may disagree on the extent of the problem. I still have a concern that this is a solution looking for a problem; I am not sure that there is a massive problem. In the spirit of co-operation, I shall certainly praise the approach that Reading has taken in finding a sensible compromise that not only suits its needs, but protects the legitimate rights of pedlars. Therefore, I see no reason why the Bills relating to Leeds and Reading should not be readily agreed.
	The case is slightly different as regards Nottingham. My understanding—the hon. Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell) may well be able to help here—is that Nottingham has not been quite as keen as Leeds or Reading to co-operate and recognise some of the legitimate concerns raised, particularly those discussed in previous debates by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. I hope that before we finally consider whether to divide on the Bills, the hon. Member for Nottingham, East might offer some reassurance that Nottingham will go down a similar line to Leeds and Reading and will look to incorporate some of the compromises that those cities have adopted.
	It is important to consider, albeit briefly, some new points that have emerged from the report published by the university of Durham, which was not available to the House when we previously debated these matters.
	As the House will know, in paragraph 4 of a statement made by the promoters of the Bills they state:
	"The arguments in favour of the Bills have been rehearsed at length in the debates on the Manchester, Bournemouth and Canterbury Bills, and they apply equally to Leeds, Nottingham and Reading."
	In paragraph 5, they go on to quote the report from Durham university:
	"Local authorities hoping to adopt legislation—whether a Private Act or the adoption of powers granted under the current Private Members Bill, if it becomes law—should provide a strong case to justify their adoption."
	The promoters use that statement to argue against any further delay or debate about these matters, but the Durham university report, published since those Second Reading debates, makes it clear—in paragraph 212, page 70, if anybody has a copy of the report—that there should be a heavy burden of proof attached to those seeking private legislation
	"to establish genuine evidence of a local problem insurmountable through the use of existing powers."
	My contention is that no such case has been made for any of these cities, as far as I am aware.

Fabian Hamilton: My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (John Battle) quoted two recent court cases from 15 May, which, in the case of Leeds, prove that the sanctions against such street traders are simply not tough enough. The results of those cases prove that those sanctions act as no deterrent to such individuals. Has the hon. Gentleman been to the centre of Leeds on a busy Saturday, or even during the week, and seen some of the illegal street trading that is going on? He would realise, then, that this is not a solution looking for a problem but very much a problem that needs this solution.

Philip Davies: I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but are one or two examples sufficient to make us go through the whole process of a new Act of Parliament and to justify the time that is being taken up? In answer to his question, I have regularly visited the centre of Leeds. In fact, in the eight years before I entered Parliament I worked in the centre of Leeds for Asda. I am well aware of the pros and cons of Leeds city centre, but I am not entirely sure that in the haste to get the Bills passed we have heard a coherent case about the problems encountered.
	The Durham university report shows that the test for the legislation should be quite high. It appears to me, at the moment, that we are being asked to support the Bills on the basis of rather limited information. It would help if we had some firm evidence of the problems. I welcome the specific examples relating to Leeds that the right hon. Member for Leeds, West cited and I hope that we will hear the same points made about Reading and, in particular, about Nottingham. Given Nottingham's reluctance to compromise at all, above all else the council must demonstrate that it has a specific problem that cannot be dealt with under existing powers. So where is that evidence? Paragraph 211 on page 70 of the Durham university report states that those who took part in its public survey
	"found genuine pedlars to be inoffensive and generally found their interactions with pedlars to be a positive experience."
	The report does not seem to be stating that there is a great case for the Bills; it seems to be saying something rather different. It goes on to say that there is
	"little sense in withdrawing the livelihood of such inoffensive and well-meaning traders",
	and that the people surveyed
	"greatly preferred pedlars to operate in the street, rather than door-to-door."
	I am not entirely sure whether the Durham university report makes the case for the promoters of the Bills, as they try to indicate in their statement. The report concluded that
	"restricting pedlars to door-to-door trading only would lead to a severe restriction on their livelihood."
	Paragraph 6 of the statement from the promoters of the Bills says that
	"evidence of the problems that the Bills seek to address will be provided to the committees of both Houses, and those committees will be able to test the case for the Bills in detail, to meet the recommendation in the Durham report."
	That statement misunderstands the fact that it is imperative, before approval be given, in principle, to the restriction of rights of pedlars on Second Reading, that there should be
	"genuine evidence of a local problem insurmountable through the use of existing powers",
	as the Durham university report said.
	I am not a big fan of the idea that we should say, "Let's agree to anything on Second Reading, because all matters can be decided, one way or the other, in Committee. If we think that we have got it wrong, we can change things then. We can always vote against the measure on Third Reading." That seems rather a strange approach to parliamentary scrutiny and parliamentary legislation, because on that basis, presumably no one would ever vote against the Second Reading of anything. We might say, "We can deal with all the issues in Committee," but that is not sufficient reason to support the Bills on Second Reading.
	Nottingham is, it seems, the least keen to compromise. If there is such a serious problem in Nottingham that the city not only needs the Nottingham City Council Bill to be agreed to, but is not even prepared to compromise on it, presumably it should not be difficult to provide some cogent evidence and some good examples of where the problem is. However, the only evidence that the House has had drawn to its attention is on page 34 of the Durham university report, which shows that in 2006, in the whole of the Nottinghamshire police force area, only two defendants were found guilty of offences under the Pedlars Act 1871. In 2005, the number was seven, and in 2004 it was four. I would submit that that does not indicate that there is an issue of such gravity and importance that the House should spend, or perhaps waste, time and money considering legislation to cover Nottingham specifically.
	All the evidence from the report, which the Government commissioned, suggests that there is not really much of a problem in Nottingham. Perhaps the promoters of the Bills—again, I look particularly to the promoters of the Nottingham City Council Bill—can let us have the details of whether the offences identified in the report took place in the city of Nottingham, or a different part of the Nottinghamshire police force area. That is not entirely clear from the information that we have. Perhaps they can also tell us what the nature of the offences was, so that we can have a basis on which to decide whether we need legislation for Nottingham. I genuinely think that the case has not been made. I have attended all the Second Reading debates that we have had on such Bills, and I have heard little from those who support the Bills about why the Bills are so good. The right hon. Member for Leeds, West probably made the best case that I have heard at such a Second Reading, even though his speech was incredibly brief. We need people to put forward a case before the House accepts it; it should not accept the proposals willy-nilly without even challenging whether they are necessary.
	I come back to the point that I made in my intervention on the right hon. Gentleman. I represent a seat neighbouring Leeds, and I absolutely understand that his constituency is much nearer the centre of Leeds than mine is. If anyone were to move from Leeds to Shipley, they would certainly go through his patch. They may well not even come to Shipley, but go straight to Bradford or somewhere else. However, Members who represent neighbouring areas should be concerned.
	On page 32 of the report, paragraph 94 deals with the number of complaints that have been made and the number of prosecutions that have taken place. The report examines the particularly high rate of guilty verdicts in Derbyshire and Kent under the terms of the Pedlars Act and states:
	"In the latter case this could be the result...of an influx of pedlars from London, where the application of the London Local Authorities Act 2004 may have driven them out of the capital."
	So the Durham university report clearly makes the point that by restricting the rights of pedlars in specific centres, there is a good chance that they will move to other parts of the country.
	It seems perverse for us as a national Parliament to say it is all right to restrict pedlars in particular cities, but we are happy for them to move on to other cities nearby. That is a bizarre and divisive approach for a national Parliament to take. I know the point has been made before, so in line with Mr. Deputy Speaker's ruling, I shall not go over it, but that paragraph of the report is important for people living in areas neighbouring the cities under discussion. We should consider whether there is a national problem and whether we need national legislation, rather than adopting a piecemeal approach which may suit the centre of Leeds, Nottingham or Reading, but gives no thought to cities and towns nearby.
	When we come to decide these matters, potentially in a vote, I see no reason why the Bills that relate to Leeds and Reading should not progress to Committee, even though we do not yet have the results of the Government's consultation. Those cities are keen to compromise, and in that spirit we should not unduly delay the progress of those Bills. I hope they will be able to proceed without the need for a Division.
	However, the case for Nottingham has not been made. The Durham university report does not show that there is a particular problem in Nottingham, as opposed to any other part of the country. If the case is not made properly, the House should decide that that Bill does not deserve a Second Reading today.

John Heppell: I shall be brief, as I recognise that the subject has been debated for almost a year. For anyone to pretend now that we have not heard all the arguments and that we need to produce details is nonsense. I do not need to produce any evidence of what is happening in Nottingham in order to make a decision.
	Unlike the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), I live in Nottingham and I pass the streets where the problem occurs at least once a week. I can point to a place less than 100 yd from my office where illegal street pedlars are operating. They cause a fair amount of disruption in a pedestrianised area for shoppers passing through. Also, they are, in effect, competition—I consider it illegal competition—for those people who go through the proper procedures and get themselves licensed as street traders. The legislation is needed and it is needed now. We are not in search of a problem; the problem exists.
	I recognise— [ Interruption. ] There is plenty of evidence. I can show the hon. Member for Shipley photographs and information from the police. I accept that it is a minor problem and that it is not big crime, but to deal with it requires that we spend an awful lot of resources, time and ratepayers' money on trying to take people to court. There are so few prosecutions because the existing legislation does not allow us to take them to court. I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman cannot get that through his head.

Philip Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

John Heppell: No, I will not. The hon. Gentleman has had a year to ask us to give way.
	I know that you would rule me out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I started talking about amendments that were not on the Order Paper, so I shall discuss the Bill as it exists. However, I do not see a need to compromise with the hon. Member for Christchurch or the hon. Member for Shipley and go against the wishes of the people of Nottingham and, I suspect, the majority of the House. I find it strange that people who, for a year, have tried to wreck the Bill—there is no other way to put it—should now have some benevolent amendments to suggest. I have a suspicion that the amendments are intended to give them the opportunity to think of other ways of wrecking the Bill in the future, so I and the city and people of Nottingham are not willing to compromise with people from outside Nottingham. It is not their problem. The Bill is for local people and local representatives, who should know far better than anyone down here, and probably even far better than I do, what is required for Nottingham.
	When the time comes, I shall move the Bill, and I hope that the House supports it. We have had a year's delay, which has been a great disadvantage to the people of Nottingham and it has created a great deal of expense. I hope that that is over now.

Robert Wilson: I am extremely grateful for the opportunity finally to contribute to the Reading Borough Council Bill debate. Before I do that, I shall comment briefly on the Leeds City Council Bill, because my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) is unable to attend today's debate, as others have said, and I join them in wishing him a speedy recovery.
	My hon. Friend has been extremely assiduous in his attendance at these debates and central to ensuring that the Bills have not gone through on the nod. He has spoken at length, demonstrating a great knowledge and understanding of the issue, and he has supported the underdog, as the pedlar can be assumed to be in this case. Although my hon. Friend's presence is missed today, at least by some of us, I hope to be able to further his hard work and to put on the record the current position regarding Leeds city council, before I move on to Reading.
	My hon. Friend has led the opposition to an array of Bills that would otherwise seemingly have gone through without proper scrutiny. One of his main concerns has been the impact of the legislation on legitimate entrepreneurial pedlars going about their genuine business, and he has engaged with local authorities to try to reach agreements and ensure that the livelihoods of those pedlars are not curtailed unnecessarily. I can report that he, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said, has negotiated for some time and with some success with Leeds city council and Reading borough council on the narrow issue of pedlars. Both councils are to be highly commended for their sensible and extremely conciliatory approach towards finding common ground and an acceptable solution for all sides. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said, that is very much at odds with the attitude of Nottingham city council.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch was recently provided with an amended version of clause 5, which Leeds city council and Reading borough council have proposed for consideration in Committee in relation to pedlars. The amendment is testament to my hon. Friend's ongoing and unwavering support for that small but nevertheless very important group of entrepreneurs.
	On behalf of my hon. Friend, and for the purposes of this debate, I should like to read into the record the clause, as amended, which would form the new clause 5. Its sub-paragraph 2A states:
	"Trading is carried on in accordance with this sub-paragraph if—
	(a) It is carried out only by means of visits from house to house; or
	(b) the following applies—
	(i) all items used for any purpose connected with the trading are carried, without any other means of support, by the holder of the certificate during the time in which the trading takes place; and
	(ii) the trading is not carried out in a prohibited street; and
	(iii) the trading does not include the trading of tickets."
	In the light of that major concession, my hon. Friend has asked me to express his gratitude to Leeds city council and Reading borough council for working towards a satisfactory solution. He was, however, of the understanding that sub-paragraph 2A(b)(ii), relating to trading in a prohibited street, would not be included in the amendment. I am sure that that will require explanation, or removal, in Committee. However, in the spirit of the negotiations, I should say that the inclusion of that provision should not hold up matters today; it would be a great shame if we held up the Reading Borough Council Bill or the Leeds City Council Bill today or later in the process.
	It is worth mentioning, however, that the Nottingham City Council Bill could be opposed today, as has been said. That is mainly due to the council's failure to engage in negotiation and proper debate. It is a great shame that Nottingham should be singled out in this way, but I hope that the council will learn lessons from how Leeds city council and Reading borough council have behaved.
	I shall now set out directly my points about Reading. Some of my hon. Friends have been extremely exercised by the Bills, and with good reason. I have listened carefully to all the arguments about the other Bills; I think that I have attended all the debates apart from the revival debate, so I feel that I have a good grasp of what has gone on. It is a relief finally to get to the Reading Borough Council Bill after all those hours of discussion.
	I was not consulted by Reading borough council in advance of its developing the Bill. The first that I knew of it was when I was lobbied by a council officer, not long before the matter arrived in this House. That is a little worrying and slightly strange; I suppose that it is partly due to Reading's consultation process not being as good as it should be.

Martin Salter: I do not wish to break this wonderful spirit of harmony that we are developing across the Floor of the House. However, does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that he is talking utter hogwash? I hope that that is in order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If the hon. Gentleman had not pulled out of the joint liaison meetings that he and I used to hold regularly with Reading borough council, he would have been as consulted, as I was.

Robert Wilson: I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman is talking about; as and when a matter comes up, I meet Reading borough council officers regularly. It is a little disingenuous of the hon. Gentleman to break the consensus of the afternoon just because I choose to handle my local constituency matters in a way that is appropriate for me. That does not stop him from handling his constituency matters through joint liaison meetings with the council if he wishes.
	Neither side has made a completely open-and-shut case for or against the proposed changes, so I would like to take a little time to go through a few of the issues about Reading. In that way, at least they will be on the record and have what I would regard as a decent airing. From the previous debates on Bournemouth, Canterbury, Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham and so forth, we know that the control of street trading—mainly in relation to pedlars—comes under schedule 4 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982.
	Like the other Bills, although bearing in mind the fact that they are not all exactly the same, the Reading Borough Council Bill would change the existing legislation that gives licences to pedlars to trade legally using a licence paid for by a £12.50 fee. Councils currently receive no business rates or licence fees from pedlars. In most local authority areas, the annual street trading fee is between £500 and £800, whereas pedlars continue to pay the much smaller fee of £12.50. It has been argued strongly, and with reasonable justification, that that represents an undercutting of other traders and is therefore unfair competition.
	During one of my many walkabouts in Reading town centre last year, I had the opportunity to speak to several local traders. One of them, Salim, expressed his annoyance that pedlars were able to sell their merchandise without paying the same fees that he paid, and also could bypass the local authority bureaucracy. Pedlars, by the nature of their occupation, are transient salespeople, and it is fair to argue that they contribute very little to the ongoing success of the local economy, unlike their registered street trader counterparts. Salim argued to me that this amounted to unfair competition. He told me that he was paying several thousand pounds a year for his pitch in the town centre as against the £12.50 per year paid by a pedlar. One can therefore understand his concern about competition. His family are providing local jobs and income for Reading, and they also run a local shop, while the pedlars clearly do not do that.
	The main purpose of the Bill is to extend the scope of the council in regulating the provision of services on the street, as well as touting. However, extending the council's powers to regulate almost automatically makes me feel uneasy. I have always been of the view that less is more. The natural inclination of Governments local and national is to do more, to interfere more, and to involve themselves to a greater degree. That involvement usually makes matters worse rather than better, so it is rarely the right solution.
	It is fair to say that in the past touting has been an important issue in Reading owing to the enormous numbers of young people arriving every year for the Reading festival, which takes place over the August bank holiday. I would thoroughly recommend it to hon. Members if they wish to visit Reading at that time. I believe that we have previously hosted the former Prime Minister's favourite group, the Foo Fighters, and the current Prime Minister's favourite group, the Arctic Monkeys. I use the word "favourite" in inverted commas, of course, because that information was briefed by Damian McBride, so one cannot tell what is true and what is not.

Martin Salter: rose—

Robert Wilson: If you are going to say something sensible, I will let you get up—go on.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman of his language. He certainly should not be addressing the hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) in those terms, let alone the Chair.

Martin Salter: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I certainly do not guarantee to say anything sensible, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way.
	Would the hon. Gentleman like to remind the House that in the dark and dismal days of 1983 and 1984, it was a Conservative council in Reading that axed the Reading rock festival? It ill behoves him to be praying it in aid now.

Robert Wilson: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman wishes to go back into ancient history. I am sure we could talk about lots of things from those times. As the current leadership of the borough council is about to become ancient history, perhaps in a few years we will revisit that as well.

Philip Davies: My hon. Friend talks about the problem that Reading has with ticket touting. I do not know whether he has read the reports by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee and the Office of Fair Trading on ticket touting, which show that it is beneficial to the consumer. Is he saying that there is an objection to ticket touting, which could benefit Reading's residents by giving them an opportunity to go to something that they could not have gone to otherwise or to sell a ticket at a profit? Why is ticket touting a problem for residents in Reading? Is it not a benefit to them?

Robert Wilson: I have not read the whole report, but I have read parts of it. My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and if he bears with me I shall go through the points about ticket touting, and in particular the problems that the police say it causes.
	I have been told that the activity of touts is of significant concern to the local authority, the local police and the Reading festival organisers alike. Richard Bennett, my local basic command unit commander, informed me during my consultation process on the Bill that the police have greatly limited powers in respect of illegal touting, but that the removal of such activity would reduce the risk to Reading festival-goers of buying forgeries, and also reduce the trade in stolen tickets. He said the following—it is a fairly lengthy quotation, but I wish to put it on the record:
	"The individuals involved in touting include both legitimate traders and others who are involved in various forms of criminality. The police have very limited powers in respect of touting per se, but the removal of this type of activity would reduce the risk to Festival goers of buying forgeries and would reduce the trade in stolen tickets and wrist bands. There is Police activity in respect of both of these and we respond to the reports of thefts and forgeries accordingly but the existence of widespread touting provides a cover for the actions of criminals and we are responding to offences that have been committed rather than preventing them from happening in the first place."
	The principle of good, proactive, preventive policing is something that we should all support.

Philip Davies: That is all very well, and I am delighted that my hon. Friend is making a far better case for Reading than anyone has even tried to make for Nottingham, but does he not accept that selling stolen or forged tickets is a criminal offence in itself and does not need any additional legislation? It is fraud, and it is theft. That is completely different from the selling on of legitimate tickets.

Robert Wilson: Yes, I accept that there is a difference between those two things, but I wish to lay out my broad case, after which I shall be happy to give way again, if my hon. Friend wishes to intervene.
	There is an absurdity in Reading borough council's position. As I understand it, it means that touting could be an offence in a designated part of Reading in my constituency, but not in Woodley or Earley, which are in my constituency but which fall within the borough boundaries of Wokingham borough council. I would be extremely interested to know where the demarcation would be for a touting offence to be committed, and how it would be policed. It is not clear from the Bill how the offence is intended to work or be used, so it is somewhat equivalent to a blank cheque. What offence would the laws be used for? Would they just be for the Reading festival, or would they be for sporting events such as London Irish rugby matches, or concerts at the Hexagon in Reading town centre? Ticket touting is not illegal elsewhere in the country, apart from, I think—

Philip Davies: Football.

Robert Wilson: Apart from football matches. I thank my hon. Friend for confirming that. Where will the limits on the power be? It strikes me that the Bill would create an anomaly, which needs further explanation and probably further consultation and consideration before the Bill completes its passage.
	To return to pedlars, Reading borough council argues that the small annual licence fee that they pay is not a reasonable sum in comparison with the sizeable annual rates paid by shopkeepers and permanent street traders. As I have said, that is a fair argument. A pedlar's licence can be obtained virtually anywhere in the country by anyone claiming to have a good character. Given the outdated nature of the original legislation, there seems to be significant room for people who are less than genuine to obtain a certificate from the police. The police have argued to me that they do not have the time or inclination to check a person's good character thoroughly, and that they can check only their criminal record. The system therefore has its limitations.
	When I talked to a local pedlar, she had no idea that traditional street traders paid so much more than she did to trade on Broad street in Reading town centre. She suggested a change in the system whereby pedlars should be made to contribute more and street traders made to pay less for their licences so that a sort of equilibrium was reached. Although that is an honourable response, we were filming her at the time for a YouTube video on my website. I am not sure whether all the pedlars in the town centre agree with that point of view.
	It is important not to vilify pedlars as glorified Del Boys, as some have done. Anyetta, the pedlar whom I met, was pleasant and helpful. She explained that she was simply trying to find ways in which to pay off her student loan, and peddling was only one of several jobs in which she was involved. It is an age-old, honourable business for those who choose to take it up. It is far from easy, but it is easy to criticise and castigate those who do it.
	I also had the opportunity to speak to a shopper in Reading town centre, who had returned for the second week running to buy the same item from a local pedlar. When asked whether Broad street would be better off without such traders, he simply answered, "If you're walking down the high street and you see something you like, you make a choice." He implied that if the pedlars' merchandise is not of sufficient quality, discerning shoppers will vote with their feet and not come back. When I asked whether it bothered him that he might not be able to return the product the following week, his simple response was, "Woolworths might not be here next week." As it happened, Woolworths was not there the next week, so his example was fitting.
	The local police force also has an important part to play. I met town centre police officer Rob Murray, who explained that, although illegal peddling is not a priority for the police, it is one of the main issues that the local neighbourhood action group consistently raises. Astonishingly, the group raises the matter as often as more serious problems, such as antisocial behaviour, rough sleeping in the town centre, which is increasing, and problems relating to the night-time economy, such as drinking and prostitution. Police enforcement exercises and prosecutions using CCTV have had limited effect. Sergeant Murray said that only seven prosecutions had been brought in recent years, which suggests that the existing legislation has not been thoroughly used.
	I have also engaged in correspondence with the Berkshire West BCU commander Richard Bennett, who has informed me that the police are required to regulate pedlars while the local council regulates street traders. There is therefore a division of responsibility. The main conflict occurs when people use pedlar certificates to avoid the regulations and limitations placed on street traders. One of the main barriers to prosecution is the requirement on pedlars to keep moving. Is it sensible to ask our police to regulate that, and make them watch pedlars, who pull big trolleys up and down Broad street, waiting for them to stop for a period of time so that they can prosecute them? Is that not a waste of valuable time and resources, when the police could engage with far greater priorities for my constituents?

Philip Davies: I believe that my hon. Friend's constituency is covered by Thames Valley police. According to the Durham university report, three people were found guilty of offences in 2006 under the Pedlars Act 1871, and in 2005, there were no prosecutions. Is my hon. Friend saying that there is a big problem but the police do not have the resources to deal with it, or that the conviction rate is so low because there is not that much of problem in Reading? Is he saying that there is a problem, but the police simply have no time or resources to tackle it?

Robert Wilson: From my direct experience, I can say that there is a problem. There are a significant number of pedlars, but the difficulty is proving that they have committed an offence. One has to watch pedlars pulling trolleys up and down the street for a long time—several hours. There can be six, eight, sometimes even 10 big trolleys—some are the size of a street stall. That is not easy to police and one has to watch carefully if one wants the prosecution to stick. It is a question of resources, and I sympathise with the police's problem, which is why it is probably better for the local authority to play a bigger role in policing peddling.
	Rather than expecting the police to take action against pedlars, it is much better that local authorities should have sufficient powers to regulate the offending behaviour themselves. Richard Bennett also reiterated the fact that neighbourhood policing is not intended to address all the licensing and trading issues that the local authority is meant to control. The local police response was that Reading borough council has a responsibility to create the sort of conditions in the town centre that will help legitimate street traders to prosper.
	The upshot of the police response is simple. Although each case is complex, giving limited additional powers to other agencies, such as Reading borough council, would increase the range of options available to all authorities to put sensible measures in place. Although I would not wish to generalise about other forces across the country, Reading police made it clear that it sees the Bill not as being about handing over power to the council, but as being about sharing responsibility, which will make enforcement action much quicker and more coherent.
	That is a logical and sensible approach. If the Reading Borough Council Bill is passed, it would undoubtedly free up the police's valuable resources to address more pressing issues in the Reading area. Steve Kirk, Reading's local police area commander, has also written in support of the application for a change in the legislation, which, as we know, dates back to 1871. He says that the 1871 Act is now simply not fit for the purpose of controlling the activity that it was originally intended to control.
	I want to draw hon. Members' attention to the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) in our previous debate. He advocated dealing with the problem through an overarching, national solution, rather than through piecemeal legislation. He rightly asked: if the Reading Borough Council Bill receives Royal Assent, what is to stop other local authorities from seeking the same legislation in their town centres? Not only would valuable parliamentary time have to be found for each separate Bill, but there would be a detrimental effect on the public purse.
	That is a serious point, because I understand that each such Bill that is brought to Parliament costs about £100,000. I understand that a portion of the cost of the Reading Borough Council Bill is being funded by the business improvement district, but perhaps there are better ways of spending local taxpayers' money than bringing forward such Bills from across the country in the way that we are. I am digressing slightly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but with 50 Bills in the pipeline, a significant amount of public money would be needed to try to take them all through Parliament.
	There is an argument that much of the current private legislation would be unnecessary if the Government agreed to a national legislative framework. Indeed, some hon. Members argued strongly for that in previous debates. That is one reason why I read with interest the research conducted by St. Chad's college, Durham, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has referred, that was commissioned by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. That research raised several interesting points that are worthy of mention in this debate in relation to Reading borough council.
	The research concluded that the scale of pedlary in the UK is relatively modest—although one would not know that from some of our debates—with an estimated 3,000 to 4,500 people being granted certificates by police forces across the country. The study found little evidence that certificated pedlars present problems in most city centres or that they are in direct competition with shops or street traders. The evidence also suggested that consumers value pedlars' presence in town centres and regard buying from them as a positive experience, as I found when I was out looking at the issue in Reading town centre. The study ended by stating that there is no need for national legislation, although solutions may be required to deal with local problems in particular areas.
	Although I have already highlighted the legal anomaly that would arise because of the split of my constituency into two areas under separate local authorities, I believe that the conclusions of the report are sensible and fair. It says that the most common desire of local authorities is to be able to exercise more flexible and powerful sanctions, such as the ability to seize goods, issue fixed penalty notices and move traders on. However, the most evident concern related to the issues of obstruction or public safety caused by large numbers of street traders gathering in small areas, such as around football grounds or in city centres in the run-up to Christmas. My experience in Reading town centre is that large numbers of pedlars gather there with their big trolleys. At certain times, that causes an obstruction and becomes a public safety issue for my constituents. There is therefore a need for action in that area.
	Pedlars and police respondents to the research by the university of Durham also recognised the need to modernise and standardise, rather than repeal or replace, the 1871 Act. The inadequacies of the present system lead to inconsistency in enforcement practice between areas, which is exacerbated by a degree of ignorance among enforcement officers. I am sure that we all agree that greater clarity on this issue is needed for enforcement officers and pedlars alike. Interestingly, many of the local authorities that submitted evidence said that there were few, if any, difficulties stemming from illegal street trading. Only half the local authority respondents wished to change the existing legislation. This shows that, while certain councils—Reading included—wish to add to their statutory powers, many are happy with the status quo. Such information raises concerns about how important the new legislation really is. The Durham research concluded that possible changes to procedures relating to pedlars could include a more concrete nationally applicable set of definitions and guidelines relating to the issuing of certificates and to pedlars' activities, the redesign and standardisation of the pedlars' certificate and a greater burden on the pedlar to prove that they are a legitimate trader.
	As a former entrepreneur—indeed, I still like to think of myself as a businessman—I strongly believe in the right to free, open and fair trade. I do not wish in any way to be seen to be against pedlars, because legitimate traders have a rightful place on every high street and add to the colour and diversity of our towns and cities. I do not want this legislation to drive out the genuine pedlar. However, I also do not believe that an ambiguity in the law should enable certain individuals to flout the rules at the expense of others.
	Having aired these arguments and raised a few points of continued concern, I am going to support the Bill on this occasion, but on the clear understanding that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch—whose diligence must be commended—has brokered a very sensible compromise with Reading borough council. I congratulate the borough officer responsible, Clare Bradley, on agreeing a sensible compromise that all parties, including myself, appear to be happy with. That compromise will allow pedlars to continue to trade in the heart of my constituency, but without using the massive rolling trolleys to which I have referred. They are more akin to street traders' stalls on wheels, and they allow unfair competition. The pedlars will be able to trade in the more traditional way intended, and their enterprise will therefore be properly rewarded. I welcome the compromise and will therefore not detain the House any further.

Martin Salter: It would be churlish of me not to welcome the conversion of the hon. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson), but it is fair to say that it has been some time coming. The House has been entertained by hon. Members airing of the arguments on the Durham university report on many occasions. I welcome the fact that a compromise has been struck.
	In the short contribution that I made earlier, I sought to highlight that there was no intention by Reading borough council or its officers—or, indeed, the business community of Reading—to restrict the more traditional role of the pedlar. There is, however, a problem with their wheeled monstrosities. I call them that because I have seen bogus pedlars trying to move them, and it can take four or five people to move them only a yard or two. Reports from the police and from the council officer concerned show that attempts to move these mobile stalls have resulted in goods and wares falling on to the ground in a chaotic manner.
	My experience of trying to buy something from a pedlar is less romantic than that of the hon. Member for Reading, East. The last time I approached a pedlar in Reading town centre, I was just about to investigate his wares when he was arrested by the police and the Border and Immigration Agency and subsequently deported as an illegal immigrant. So there is, I am afraid, a direct parallel, with people using the pedlar certificate and the arcane provisions of the Pedlars Act 1871 as a straightforward flag of convenience—this applies in Reading and in other communities—in order to undercut, undermine and provide unfair competition for legitimate street traders.
	It is worth reading into the record that the street trader fees currently levied for Broad street in the centre of Reading are £5,425 a year—and there were six of these at the time—so it equates to approximately £15 a day, whereas a pedlar's certificate can be obtained anywhere in the country, I believe, for about £12.50.
	It is also worth stating, notwithstanding the Durham report—much of it does not apply to Reading because Reading does not restrict pedlars or street traders to the peripheries of the town centre—that the definition of a pedlar is somewhat arcane in itself. According to the definition in the 1871 Act, a pedlar is
	"any hawker, pedlar, petty chapman"—
	whatever that means—
	"tinker, caster of metals, mender of chairs, or any other person who, without any horse or other beast of bearing or drawing burden, travels and trades on foot and goes from town to town or to other men's houses, carrying to sell or exposing for sale any goods, wares, or merchandise, or procuring orders for goods, wares, or merchandise immediately to be delivered, or selling or offering for sale his skill in handicraft".
	Now, about 130 years down the track, it is time to define exactly what we mean by pedlar in the modern context. I have to say that some of the starry-eyed romanticism I heard from the hon. Member for Reading, East—not so much in his recent contribution as in previous ones—is well wide of the mark.
	When it comes to the Reading Borough Council Bill, I very much regret the fact that while making provision for important measures to support legitimate businesses in our communities, we are putting increasing and unnecessary pressures on the police, and so on and so forth. I worry that we are proceeding through the measure of a private Bill and I worry about all the expense, the trouble and all the parliamentary time taken up. However, we are where we are. As the former Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, once said, we have to live in the world as we find it, and the world as we find it in Reading is that we have a real, live problem that needs to be dealt with. I am thus delighted that it looks as though we are going to send this Bill on to due parliamentary process this afternoon.
	The Bill is supported by the business investment district, which is a coalition of Reading street traders, by the Thames Valley police, by all parties on Reading borough council and particularly by the legal street traders who pay their dues. I seriously take issue with the hon. Member for Reading, East about the notion of consumer rights, particularly the idea that we should somehow frame a policy prescription for consumer rights on the basis that it does not really matter whether a chain store is going to be there today or tomorrow. If people are ripped off and sold dodgy goods, it is important that, wherever possible, they have the opportunity to take them back to the specific retailer. I very much regret the fact that Woolworths went under—it is no laughing matter—but I would certainly not frame public policy on the basis that because any business may cease trading at any time, we do not need to worry about the rights of consumers.

Robert Wilson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Martin Salter: Very briefly.

Robert Wilson: The hon. Gentleman, who I thank for giving way, is operating under a misunderstanding. If he read the  Hansard, he would find that I was directly reporting the comments of one of my constituents rather than commenting about Woolworths myself, so he should correct his error.

Martin Salter: Frankly, if I read some of the speeches on this subject, I would lose the will to live, but I will certainly check the  Hansard to ensure that I have not misrepresented the hon. Gentleman's laughing at the closure of Woolworths in Reading, which I think many people view as a matter of regret.
	As to where we go from here, I hope that all these Bills will pass to their next stages and that we can continue the consensus that we have finally forged. I pay tribute to all hon. Members who have sought to find a solution to a very real problem, albeit through a rather tortuous parliamentary route.

Gareth Thomas: This has been an interesting debate, which has carried on from previous discussions of similar private Bills.
	I acknowledge the contribution of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (John Battle), who is a great champion of his city. He made a short, concise but nevertheless significant speech in favour of the Leeds City Council Bill, backed up by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton). My right hon. Friend noted in particular an amendment proposed by Leeds. I share his regret at the absence of the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope)—I am not sure he will welcome the Government wishing him well in his recovery, but I do so nevertheless.
	The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) made a series of interesting points, and has clearly been doing his research. As part of that, I hope he is now reading the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform website—a confession to which he alluded in previous debates—more thoroughly and rigorously. I am happy to be corrected by him, but he seemed to argue that either there is a national problem in relation to pedlar legislation and the way in which pedlars are handled or there is not. Although I acknowledge the number of private Bills that have been brought to the attention of the House, the number of local authorities across the UK that have not sought to introduce legislation on the issue to date is also worth noting.
	There has been growing pressure on the Government to consider the issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon) has been particularly astute in his consistent lobbying of the Government to take action. As the House knows, we have responded to such calls.

Philip Davies: Does the Minister not acknowledge the domino effect as local authorities request legislation to sort out their city, and then other local authorities find the problem transferred to them and also request legislation? Does he not agree that national legislation would sort out the problem once and for all?

Gareth Thomas: I do not necessarily accept that that is the case. Where local authorities face problems, they have sought a private Bill in the usual way to address local issues. I also acknowledge that a growing number, albeit a minority, of local authorities have been concerned about how pedlar legislation has been used, and have made the case for reform. In that spirit, we have sought to conduct the research led by Durham university, to which I will refer in a moment.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) again made a passionate and powerful speech in favour of the Reading Borough Council Bill. The hon. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) also made a thoughtful and considered case for the Bill. I was almost sympathetic to his plight as my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West intervened on him: his interventions made me grateful that he continues to be on my side. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell) also made a passionate defence of his city's need for the legislation under consideration.
	For the convenience of the House, let me set out the Government's updated thinking on the issues. In March, during the revival debate on these and three other private Bills, I confirmed that my Department would undertake a consultation this summer on street trading and pedlary, as a result of the research findings set out in the Durham university report, which my Department commissioned last year. As I have said, we hope to launch the consultation by the summer recess. Details will appear on the DBERR website in the usual way, and no doubt the hon. Member for Shipley will be one of the first to spot them.

John Hemming: I welcome the consultation on the Pedlars Act. May I ask the Minister, however, whether in the future he might recognise that £100,000 is a relatively high threshold, and that nothing should necessarily be read into the fact that local authority nuisance has not reached the threshold of £100,000-worth of expenditure?

Gareth Thomas: I acknowledge the cost of bringing a private Bill to the Floor of the House of Commons. One of the reasons why the Government commissioned the Durham university research, and one of the reasons for the consultation that we are launching in the summer, is the fact that we received a number of representations from local authorities and hon. Members about the need for the Government to review this issue nationally. We have sought to respond to the concerns of the House. I am sure that, in his more generous moments, the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that we are a listening Government and have listened to the concerns of the House in this instance.
	As the House will recognise, the activities of unlawful street traders can adversely affect the livelihoods of licensed street traders, certified pedlars—those acting in accordance with the Pedlars Act—other retailers and consumers. We therefore strongly support the efforts of local authorities and their enforcement partners to use the powers at their disposal to regulate unlawful traders' behaviour.
	In due course, the street trading and pedlary consultation will seek to explore three main themes. First, it will seek views on options concerning the scope for providing extra enforcement powers along the lines of those which are subject to these Bills—in particular, fixed penalties and powers of seizure and confiscation to enable more effective control of illegal street traders. Secondly, it will seek views on the potential for updating the Pedlars Act to bring what is a 19th-century framework firmly into the 21st century. We will consider the future of the form of the pedlars' certificate. We will consider which should be the issuing authority if it is not to be the police, as is currently the case. We will consider how to maintain the national nature of a genuine pedlar's permission to trade while still meeting the valid wish of some local authorities to be able to control the level of trading activity in relation to special events or in particular areas where too much trading has an adverse effect.
	Thirdly, we will seek views on draft guidance that offers clearer advice on what is permitted and what is not. We will also seek views on the future position of pedlars of services in the wake of alterations in the course of implementation of the services directive. We will seek to reach the pedlar community. We will also work with trading standards and other local authority officers in considering how the options before us might be usefully developed, and we will, of course, want to hear the views of the police.
	A range of other key stakeholders are already considering what should be done. The National Association of British Market Authorities will hold a seminar later this month. As we have heard, some local authorities whose Bills are before the House have already discussed with a number of hon. Members their experience of the current legislation and their appetite for more change, and I understand that a number of pedlars also wish to share their experience of the current position.
	I welcome the work of those other stakeholders, which we shall want to use in our deliberations. We shall also give further consideration to the debates on these Bills that have already taken place in the House, and those that will take place in the future, in deciding what action to take. I commend the Government's neutrality on the Bills to the House.

John Penrose: I commend the industry and efforts of the different local councils who have brought the Bills to the House. As hon. Members on both sides of the House have mentioned, the process of bringing a private Bill before the House is expensive, quite complicated, pretty time-consuming and rather arcane.
	It is worthy of note that these local councils have found their way through the different thickets and underbrush of parliamentary procedure to get to this point. It has been an achievement. It is also worth mentioning that a number of other local authorities may be deterred from bringing such Bills to the House because the process is so complicated and relatively expensive. That point was made by the spokesman for the Liberal Democrats.
	My constituency has similar problems with pedlars. Every autumn, the Weston-super-Mare carnival is held—carnivals are a wonderful west country, Somerset tradition. On a Monday evening in late autumn, a colourful and loud procession will wend its way through the streets of Weston-super-Mare, with a lot of people turning up to watch. I have had repeated representations from the organisers of the carnival, who perform that task in their free time, as volunteers, to raise money for a variety of good causes. They are concerned that, for that night, Weston-super-Mare is besieged by pedlars from throughout the country who come to sell their wares. The organisers are concerned that money spent with those pedlars might otherwise be spent or donated to the various good causes that benefit from the carnival. People are deeply concerned about that lost revenue.

David Heath: I support the hon. Gentleman strongly on this matter. As he knows, the circuit includes many Somerset towns—no one outside Somerset has any concept of the scale of Somerset carnivals—so pedlars are a real problem throughout the county. As he knows, his predecessor tried hard to get the law changed to deal with the problem. I hope that through the process of private Bills, the Government will eventually recognise that the prevalence of pedlars is a problem for the charitable sector as well as for commercial traders.

John Penrose: I am grateful for my fellow Somerset MP's support. What we have described is a microcosm of a much wider problem. My local council has considered bringing one of these Bills to the House but after extensive consideration it has so far decided that it cannot justify the expense, for the reasons that have been mentioned by hon. Members on both sides of the House. I compliment those councils that have promoted the Bills before the House today. They have managed to wend their way to the Floor of the House but I suspect that a large number of other councils are either actively considering doing the same, or have so far been dissuaded because of the cost of the process. It is worth putting that point on record.
	As we have heard, there are arguments about the merits and demerits of pedlars. It is worth saying that no one is suggesting that legal street traders and pedlars may not necessarily be a good thing—in fact, they are closely regulated and it is accepted that they can bring a useful buzz and colour to the streetscape and town centre, and can be an important aspect of a shopping centre's life and fizz. However, the problem is with the unregulated or perhaps the rogue examples of the trade.
	My party shares the Government's approach of maintaining a careful and studied neutrality on individual Bills brought before the House by individual councils. It would be wrong to adopt a national position on such special local Bills, but our overarching view is worth putting on the record. We think that it is important that the existing legislation is subject to some national reform and examination, especially given the fact that we have all these Bills coming through to the Floor of the House in a rather solemn procession. Clearly, that cannot be a sensible or useful use of this Chamber's time and of the extensive resources that have to be spent in bringing each one of those Bills separately and in sequence to the Floor of the House. That cannot be a sensible use of anyone's time or resources.
	That is why I was extremely pleased to hear what I understood to be the beginnings of Government movement, and I just want to make sure that that is clearly put on the record. I think we heard the Minister say that the Government will now be considering, and consulting on, extra enforcement powers, clearer guidance and advice, and changing the Pedlars Act 1871—after 130-plus years, I suspect that may very well be sensible—not only to update some of the existing provisions, but to investigate whether it should cover services as well as goods. Everybody will broadly welcome that. If it avoids the need for any other local councils to bring yet more of these Bills, it will make everybody in all parts of the House happy—including my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), whom we all wish well in his recovery from his detached retina. I assure the House that my party will be carefully watching the Government's progress in this matter, and will try to make sure they have all the necessary support if they are going to simplify processes so that we do not need a similar procession of such Bills in future.

John Hemming: We have been generally supportive of reform in this matter. It is obvious that there are widespread problems with pedlary, as the situation at Somerset carnivals shows, and it does not require a lot of evidence. We can, I think, take at face value the tales of, for example, the hon. Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell) and the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (John Battle) that there is a specific problem in their areas. It will clearly create unfair competition if in Reading, for example, people have to pay £5,000 a year for a licence, but for £12.50 people can wander around all over the place.
	We should give more attention to the process whereby the law gets changed and how we have ended up with a sequence of Bills and to the fact that, until this point, the Government have not recognised the need for reform. To that extent, we greatly welcome the Government's consultation on the issue of pedlary. A law put in place when people did not have easy transport around the country and would wander around with their goods is now undermining the regulation of the street scene. Street traders are very important, but when people come in to localities from different areas, that causes a difficulty.
	Oddly enough, in my constituency, we have moved down the route of discouraging cold calling as well, which points to another issue that should, perhaps, be looked at in the consultation. Given that distraction burglaries are a great concern in Birmingham, Yardley, we might need to look at that wider issue as well.
	The Reading Bill contains interesting provisions relating to touting. It refers to:
	"Any person who, in a place designated under this section, importunes any person by touting for a hotel".
	It would be interesting to know how the courts would interpret that. Selecting the word "importunes" rather than "solicits" implies that somebody is being asked more than once. If we are to develop a framework for dealing with such issues, which we have supported all along, the Government's consultation should also consider what might need to be done about touting, and whether that should be addressed in relation to soliciting or importuning, which is the term used in the Bill. It might be difficult to secure prosecutions if somebody says, "Well, I only asked them once", given what, on the strict dictionary definition of the term used, the measure in the Bill means.
	I had great encouragement from the hon. Member for Nottingham, East to give a very long speech, but I am not sure that I entirely understood his semaphoring so I shall stick to talking about the basic issues, as I have so far. We support these private Bills, but in future, we will have to look at how legislation can be changed by public demand without that having to be agreed by a Department, because it is clear from the Bills' progress that the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform is resistant to necessary change. However, that resistance is gradually eroding as it is obvious that so many local authorities have reached the threshold where they are willing to spend more than £100,000—the £100,000 merely relates to the costs paid externally and there are obviously internal costs too.
	In the context of reform within this House and how legislation is generated, there must be a better mechanism for reviewing how to alter things, so that changes do not come just through the civil service, but can be developed outside this House and promoted in this House more effectively in mainstream business. That is different from everything coming along with the bus, as it were, with a standard Bill, on whatever it might be, generated out of the civil service. Resistance from within a Department—we are pleased to see it ebbing away on this occasion—causes the difficulty of a sequence of expensive private Bills and potentially a situation where we drive a problem around the country as we deal with it in each place. I must welcome the fact that the Government have recognised that and are moving to consultation. Within that consultation they should also examine the issue of touting, because if Reading feels that it is worth examining, it is important that we deal with the wider point. On that basis, we will be supporting these Bills.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed.

NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER)

Bill read a Second time and committed.

READING BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER)

Bill read a Second time and committed.

PETITION
	 — 
	European Working Time Directive (Fire Fighters)

Roger Williams: By the leave of the House, I beg to lay a petition regarding the UK opt-out from the EU working time directive. The directive would pose a threat to the retained firefighting system in the UK. The petition has been collected by the residents of Brecon and Radnorshire and contains more than 1,000 names.
	The petition states:
	To the House of Commons
	The Petition of residents of Brecon and Radnorshire, and others,
	Declares that the European Parliament's proposed abolition of the opt-out from the European Working Time Directive poses a threat to the retained fire fighter system in the United Kingdom; and further declares that the United Kingdom should maintain its right to opt out of the European Working Time Directive so that the retained fire fighters are able to continue with their commitment to the vitally important fire service.
	The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to do all in its power to preserve the right to opt out and to keep our rural fire stations open.
	And the Petitioners remain, etc.
	[P000377]

REGIONAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —(Ms Butler.)

Andrew George: I am enormously pleased, and I am sure that the Minister is delighted, that we have such a lot of time to debate this important issue—I was very much hoping that the House would have sufficient time to debate Government policy on regional and local government powers. I know that the Minister has received from my office an essay that I published three months ago, which, among other things, set out what I hope will prove to be a positive and constructive contribution to the debate on the new structure for local government in Cornwall. As a member of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, which two weeks ago published its own report on the balance of power between local and central Government, I think it is a timely moment to debate this matter. Given that we are on the eve of important elections across the country—not only the European but the local elections—I am sure the Minister would like to take the opportunity to set out the Government's vision. I hope he will accede to some of the ambitions I shall be highlighting and the points I shall be making.
	I am sure that the Minister will have enjoyed reading the 21-page essay that I sent him, and he will have noticed that I attempted to raise the debate above what has often been, in many local areas, best described as petty recrimination and party political tribalism of the worst type. It is unfortunate that so much of the debate at a local government level often resorts to that. That is no less the case in Cornwall than in many other parts of the country. I believe that it is partly a reflection of the relative powerlessness of local people when it comes to considering what local authorities can achieve.
	I often describe local authorities not as local authorities or local government as such but as local agents of central Government, given the constraints and straitjackets in which they operate as regards their duties and powers and the targets and responsibilities that are placed on them. In effect, the decisions that they take are often de facto taken remotely in Whitehall or in Government offices. In fact, the latitude available to local authorities is restricted when it comes to their ability to vary the way they deliver a number of Government services. I do not say that simply to make a point against the Labour Government, because I think this trend has been going on for some time and, to be fair, it has been happening across parties. It is part of the dynamic of the relationship between central and local government that we all need to be honest about.

Philip Davies: I agree entirely with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. He is making his case incredibly well. Does he agree that that problem is best evidenced in planning, where local councils are often put in an invidious position and end up having to approve developments that they and their local communities do not want? They have no choice because of the plethora of guidance that comes down from central Government.

Andrew George: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman but, I think that the one area where a certain amount of power is available to local authorities, in which—surprise, surprise, perhaps—there is often more competition among selected members to go on to the relevant committee, is planning. In fact, the planning committees make decisions on the economic, residential and other development of their communities. That happens very much at a local level and is, admittedly, site-specific and is applied case by case, but that committee has more power. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that power is not sufficient to allow the committee to direct development in the way I believe local authorities should be entitled to, but planning is probably the area in which local authorities have most power. If the hon. Gentleman reflects on that, he will see that it means that in all other areas of local government, powers are extremely restricted.
	It is also worth reflecting for a moment on the Government's record on regional government and regional government powers. Although I do not intend to take up a lot of time on this issue—it is one that has been widely debated on many occasions—it is perhaps worth reflecting that the Government set out with an honourable objective, which was to try to establish regional government across the country. They rightly set out to deliver devolution in Scotland and Wales and, as part of the peace process, in Northern Ireland. They set out to do so in London, too, of course. That was an appropriate approach to the concept and policy of delivering devolution across the UK.
	Of course, devolution is a process rather than a single event, and those who understand how the process works recognise that. When addressing the issue of the vacuum or lack of devolved power in the rest of the country, the Government seemed to forget that the fundamental principle of devolution is that it is a process of letting go, rather than holding on for dear life. I would have hoped that, after 12 years in power, the Government might have had the opportunity to reflect on that but, disappointingly, so far they seem not to have done so.
	I say that devolution is a process of letting go rather than holding on, because the Government appeared to take the view that they should define the boundaries of the so-called regions—I call them Government zones—in which powers were supposedly to be handed down. They also set the timetable by which they would deliver those powers. They set out the basis on which the north-east referendum of 2004 would be held. In all senses, the devolution process was very much led by central Government.
	I do not come from the north-east; I come from the diametrically opposite end of the country. I come from the far west of Cornwall—the bottom left-hand corner, as it were. If the Government said to Cornwall, "We'll offer you regional government based on these boundaries, these powers and this timetable. Now this is the question: do you want it or not?", I am afraid that a lot of people would be rather sceptical and would think there was a centrally driven agenda. The Government have retreated into a rather unhappy netherworld, having established Regional Select Committees, for which there is no cross-party consensus or support. Those Committees are a means of replacing the unelected regional assemblies, which the Government are to abolish; that is about as far as they have managed to go in the devolution of regional powers.
	In some senses, in some parts of Government there is a passion genuinely to deliver regional powers—there is recognition that the state is far too centralised. I hope that the Government will open the issue up again, and not come at it from the angle of believing that they can control the agenda in the way they have done. They should set a menu of powers and allow local authorities themselves to decide, perhaps in the same way that they are enabling that to happen through the multi-area agreements. However, I do not think those agreements go far enough, or will in any sense deliver what I believe the Government should deliver.
	The Government should allow communities to come together to draw up their own plans for devolved regional settlement, for taking powers away from the quangos, and for allowing decisions instead to be taken by directly elected representatives of local communities, who can shape and steer the ways their communities develop. If the Government were to allow that to happen, it would be easier to recognise that local government itself could be developed following the same principle—the principle that decentralisation is not just a process but is about letting go rather than holding on to the agenda. I hope that that is what the Government will do.
	As the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan), knows full well, Cornwall county council and the six district and borough councils in Cornwall went through a painful process, which involved a lot of recriminatory and unsatisfactory debate of the kind that I described to him a moment or two ago, in the lead-up to the establishment of a single unitary authority. Elections to that authority take place tomorrow.
	Cornwall put forward two possible patterns for the delivery of a single unitary authority, which I know the Government considered carefully. One proposal was for a single unitary authority with 18 local delivery areas or community networks; the other proposal was for six local delivery areas, reflecting the existing six districts. Both were unitary options. They seemed to be in conflict with each other, but in many senses they were similar bids.
	When it came to a decision on the option that the Government went along with, which was the county council's version of the single unitary authority, the debate was not very satisfactory. Many people in Cornwall felt that there was insufficient consultation. Those who were unsuccessful at the district level, if I may say so, engaged in a recriminatory political campaign to try to stop the initiative going through.
	Many of us felt that the process may be worth pursuing if the Government were prepared to give Cornwall some real decision-making powers, but as the negotiation went on it became clear that the Government would not offer Cornwall any meaningful additional powers. It would be the same, but larger, agent of central Government as before, when there were seven authorities. That was a great disappointment.
	In the vote on the order last year, I voted, with great regret, against the proposal. I felt that it should be taken away and worked on again, with the Government contributing a great deal more to the process of establishing a stronger tier of government in Cornwall. However, the decision is taken not in Cornwall but in Parliament, and Parliament saw to it that the order went through, so the unitary authority is being set up. As the Minister knows, it has established its interim board, which has been in operation since 1 April, and the first elections for 123 members will take place tomorrow.
	In spite of having been opposed to it, I want to ensure that the council is a great success. The Government need to recognise that, underlying a rather frustrated local government sector in Cornwall and a rather disenchanted electorate—we will see by Friday evening what result they produce for us—there is great ambition for Cornwall. In any area there is the silliness of the extreme fringes, but Cornwall, with its own language, history and strong constitutional status on account of the Duchy, has strong arguments to promote its diversity and cultural strength. It is a case not of Cornwall wanting to cut itself off from the rest of the country and to become rather nationalistic and narrow, but of Cornwall wanting to enter into the celebration of diversity in the UK and the wider world, but it can do that only from a position of strength, not if it has little latitude to take decisions.
	Cornwall's great ambition is to be the United Kingdom's green peninsula. We already have more wind turbines, the Government support the wave hub experiment off the north coast of my constituency. and in Cornwall there are some excellent companies operating in the geothermal and renewables sectors. In Cornwall, there is a lot of imaginative thinking and there are many excellent people to drive that agenda in the county itself. There is a real passion and ambition to champion social justice and to create the conditions for a more equal society. There is an ambition also to put our young people at the centre of policy making, but it is currently difficult to do so given the resources that are available and the way policy is directed from the centre. The careers service and other services are not under local control.
	There is an ambition to build a powerful brand for Cornwall, but that is difficult when the regional development agency covers the Government zone of the south-west, stretching from the constituency of the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) down to my constituency, which includes the Isles of Scilly. The south-west, as a Government zone, really has no brand. There are many lovely places in it, and it is worth their establishing their own brands, but there is no such thing as that south-west. It has been difficult to generate any enthusiasm or support from the regional development agency for something that it fears is about promoting a brand within the brand that it wants to create for that invented region.
	We also have an opportunity to rediscover the distinctiveness of Cornwall, to build on the cultural and environmental strengths of the county, to be outward-facing not inward-looking and to develop our communications and maritime industries. When the Government look at transport both in Cornwall and, strategically, within the RDA zone, they see the area as some kind of landlocked appendage and worry how much tarmac there is and whether the roads and the rail services are adequate, as if all communications in Cornwall travel just east to west. In fact, Cornwall is almost surrounded by sea and, seen from a much wider perspective, faces out to a much wider world. It has maritime connections, is three miles from the busiest shipping lane in the world, has the second-largest natural harbour in Europe, at Falmouth, and so on. All that potential is being ignored, and Cornwall is simply seen as a pleasant holiday destination.
	Cornwall should have the power to shape those matters and its own future. After all, who should decide how many homes are built in Cornwall? The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) mentioned planning powers, and I know that they are highly contentious both in the House and in local authorities. The Government want to develop 3 million homes by 2020, but Cornwall has undergone such development. We have not tried to resist it, because the county is one of the fastest growing places in the country. It has had the third fastest housing development since the early 1960s. In the past 40 years, Cornwall has more than doubled its housing stock, yet over that period the housing problems of local people have become, if anything, far worse. Simply building houses—heaping up thousands of houses—is not the answer. As far as the plans for Cornwall are concerned, the decisions are taken outside the county. The south-west assembly, as it called itself before it was abolished, was engaged in the process of deciding what the regional spatial strategy should look like. It came up with a figure, which was then overruled by the Secretary of State; one wonders why it bothered in the first place.
	Cornwall now has to have 70,000 houses during the 16 or 17 remaining years of the plan. However, having experienced the highest housing growth anywhere within the Government zone, and very high housing growth in the context of the UK overall, we in Cornwall know that simply adding all those houses will not address housing need. We need to establish policies that enable local authorities—in Cornwall's case, the local authority—and local communities to drive a development process that meets local social housing need.
	In my part of the world, a large proportion of properties are second homes; 10 per cent. in Penwith district are, for example. I have nothing against the people who own those homes, but they clearly have an impact on local people's ability to purchase a property locally. Just last year, I did a survey of estate agents in my constituency, and it showed that three times as many properties were sold to second-home buyers as to first-time buyers. That is the pattern in the housing market of my area. As I have said, simply building more houses is not the answer. People who want to buy second homes will clearly be better able to buy those houses than local people on local wages—in Cornwall, we have the lowest wages in the country. We have to do something rather more sophisticated than simply dumping 70,000 houses in Cornwall. The four western districts of the county are already among the four most densely populated rural districts in the Government zone, so it is not as if a wealth of development land available is available.
	Who should decide how many homes should be built in Cornwall? Should it be a Government quango or people elected to the local authority? If we ask people there, they will say, "We want a say on this matter." I am talking about Cornwall, but if people in any community are asked whether a Government board or people who represent the local community should decide whether 15 per cent. of money spent on elective surgical work should be diverted to private hospitals rather than NHS hospitals, the answer will be clear. People believe that decisions about their local NHS should be made by local people, not by a process that comes down from central Government.

Peter Soulsby: I am listening with considerable interest to the hon. Gentleman's reasonable and measured analysis of the situation, particularly in Cornwall. I generally agree that it is important that as much as possible should be devolved to local councils and communities, but does the hon. Gentleman not think that there is inevitably a tendency for local county councils to say, "Not in my back yard"—particularly when it comes to issues such as housing? There needs to be another regional tier, below central Government, that tells local councils that they are obliged to play their part in providing land for housing, although they may wish to say that they do not want that housing in their areas.

Andrew George: That is a fair point. The nub of the issue, however, relates to the blunt instrument of simply dumping housing numbers, irrespective of local circumstances or the failure of a policy of simply putting market housing in an area, a policy which has clearly failed to deliver the goods. If the local authority were to allow very high numbers of people on to local housing waiting lists but fail to address, through developments, an unmet demand within the local community for housing, that would clearly be a dereliction of its duties. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there is a role for central Government in bringing pressure to bear on local authorities that fail to address those issues. We know that merely saying in Cornwall's case, "You must find the land for 70,000 houses," will not in itself deal with the problem that we are all most concerned about—those in the community who are inadequately housed or not housed. The failure lies in using the blunt instrument of high housing numbers.

David Drew: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I am sorry to have missed some of the debate, but I have been in Select Committee.
	Is not the provision of public housing the best way for central Government, and indeed regional government, to play a part? All the evidence shows that the right relationship between public housing and private housing leads to a much better housing model. What has been seriously wrong for the past 20 years is the belief that the private market can do it all. That approach has failed, and until we get back to proper public housing provision, it will continue to fail. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

Andrew George: I do, to a certain extent. Certainly, in my own part of the world the best social housing, for want of a better expression, in terms of affordability, comprises the houses that were built by local authorities in the 1930s and 1940s. If there is any clear preference among local people when they are looking for housing, we generally find that it is centred on those estates. In some cases, those properties have gone through various modernisation programmes. They provide housing for local people that is not only decent but decently spaced, of a reasonable size and with reasonable gardens. Since that time, we have built at a much higher density. Before I became a Member of Parliament in 1997, I worked in the charitable sector to meet local housing need. I am not opposed to achieving that by deploying the talents and abilities available in the housing association and charitable housing sectors. That diversity can address housing needs. I agree that there are many lessons we can learn from the activities of the past and what local authorities were able to achieve.
	Let me turn to the document. Without poring over it in tedious detail, I am sure that the Minister will have lapped up every single word. He will have noticed that, like the report by the Communities and Local Government Committee, "The Balance of Power", it lists the extent of the constraints that are placed on local government—for example, the tendency to legislate as a first response; the detailed descriptions associated with legislation; and the proliferation of targets and performance measures, which although reduced have been consolidated. It shows that for 80 per cent. of the time that local authorities spent on performance reporting, they were reporting upwards to Government rather than to the local electorate. There is also the role of inspectorates, backed up by the threat of intervention by central Government.
	There is a classic example of that in my constituency on the Isles of Scilly. There are various requirements from inspectorates in respect of a number of the statutory duties performed by the council of the Isles of Scilly, which provides services to 2,000 people on the five inhabited islands. The cost of the best-value analyses that inspectorates require, for example on grave digging, street lighting or trading standards services, is often greater than the cost of providing the service itself. That shows the rather bizarre circumstances in which local authorities sometimes find themselves.
	There is the centralisation of financial arrangements and controls, the movement of functions away from local authorities to local appointed boards or quangos accountable to central Government and the proliferation of requirements on local authorities to submit plans to central Government. All those things put constraints on local authorities, and the only thing that local authorities get back is the opportunity to enter into a competition for central Government funding to deliver what should be core public services. Those services could include early years support through Sure Start, economic development through the market and coastal towns initiative, or community cohesion and development through the neighbourhoods for change programme, the parish path partnership or the play pathfinders scheme. That is not an attack on the current Government, because the same approach was taken by the previous one as well, but all those things are constraints on local authorities and a way of making them dance and pirouette for money to deliver what should be core services in any case.
	I want to get across to the Minister my commitment to the principle set out in the Communities and Local Government Committee report, in which I had a hand. In paragraph 4 of our conclusions and recommendations, we advanced the principle that
	"decisions which primarily affect one area to a significantly greater extent than others, should be taken within that area and not outside it"—
	in other words, the subsidiarity principle. Local authorities taking such decisions should, of course, be able to demonstrate that where there is a spill-over impact on other areas, they have taken reasonable steps to take account of that impact. That principle—that decisions affecting one area and no other should be taken in that area—is clearly not being delivered through the Government's attitude to local government. It has also failed to be delivered within local government itself.
	Although the Select Committee recognised that the Government were trying to roll out powers of well-being, for example, and that local authorities needed to use some of the powers that were available to them, many authorities do not feel that they are sufficient. They see them as rather woolly and ephemeral to what they are trying to achieve. One of our main points was that there was
	"clearly a wide division of opinion between the Government's view of recent developments and the views of the majority of our witnesses, many of whom believe that central direction and control remain unchanged or even that they have increased. The Government's record appears to us to be mixed. There remains a sizeable gap between the newly empowered local government that the Government believes it has established in principle, and the actual impact as witnessed at the local level."
	A comparison of what is available to local authorities in Britain with the European norm shows the need for some constitutional protection and greater financial autonomy and for central Government intervention to be kept in check.
	Sadly, I could not get the Select Committee to agree with me about trying to ensure that the Government had a statutory duty to report back to local government annually about what they had done across all Departments to achieve their stated objective of delivering more power to local people through a devolution settlement. I hope that the Under-Secretary will reflect on the points in the Select Committee report and my essay.
	I have not given the Under-Secretary notice of my next point and will therefore understand if he writes to me about it. One of my constituents has raised an issue with me on behalf of the Henry Spink Foundation. The Spink family, who live in my constituency, have campaigned for disabled children and adults and their carers for many years. When disabled children and their families have to move from one local authority to another, they often find that the care package that has been agreed with one local authority cannot easily be transferred to another. The Henry Spink Foundation rightly wants to establish at least greater understanding and communication between local authorities to ensure that there is a floor below which services cannot fall. It wants pragmatic and cost-neutral reforms, which, it believes, will genuinely improve the lives of thousands of severely disabled children and adults and their carers throughout the UK. That would involve creating an independent social services tribunal, which would follow the tribunal model in other sectors, establishing an ombudsman for disability, as is found in other European Union countries, and reforming local authority regulations so that care assessments and support packages for children and adults become easily portable between one local authority and another.
	I am interested in the Under-Secretary's comments about the interplay between where the Government state they wish to be and the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, which is relatively untested. In debates before the 2007 Act was passed, people cited the need to address some of the challenges that many local communities face, especially in sustaining town centres—for example, out-of-town supermarkets have an impact on town centres. The Government have been notified that many local authorities want, through the processes that the 2007 Act established, to explore the possibility of getting a more even playing field on, for example, subsidised parking. Parking is available at almost no cost—with no business rates levied—to the supermarkets, which gives them a massive advantage over their town centre competitors, whose customers have to pay prices, which are often high, for parking or face the problems of yellow lines, traffic wardens and so on.
	Overall, I know that the Minister is delighted that we have had so much time to debate the issue, and I am pleased as well. I hope that he will take this opportunity to respond to many of the issues that I raised with him in advance. I hope that Cornwall and many other areas now have an opportunity to look with greater optimism to a future in which local authorities will be genuine power brokers in their local communities that can shape the future not only of their public services, which are their responsibility, but of the communities that they serve. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about enabling councils—not only in Cornwall, but across the country—to deliver a more devolved settlement and about having far better councils in future.

Philip Davies: I do not intend to detain the House for long, but may I first congratulate the hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) on securing this Adjournment debate? It is about a vital issue that affects all our communities, including those in my part of the world, and clearly in his too. I commend him for that.
	I also commend the hon. Gentleman on his speech, which was extremely thoughtful, thought provoking and interesting. He hit the nail on the head many times in talking about the issues that local people are concerned about. There is genuine concern about the relationship between central Government, regional government and local government.
	However, one thing that the hon. Gentleman did not touch on, but which may be a fruitful topic for another time, is—to go further down the line—the role of parish councils and where they fit in. Local residents often see parish councils as expensive talking shops, but if they were given the powers that in my opinion they deserve, we could have genuinely local decision making and they would become more much powerful in the local communities that they serve. However, that debate is probably best left for another occasion.
	I was particularly struck by the hon. Gentleman's opening comments about how the relationship between local government and national Government has become more centralised, but not just under this Government, although the situation has got worse. He was right that that has happened under successive Governments of all political persuasions. Let me consider briefly why that might be the case. When a party is in government and people wish to protest about what that Government are doing, they often do so in local elections, which means that the political make-up of local government is often very different from that of central Government. Not wishing to give up their political power, central Government therefore decide to centralise powers, so that their political opponents cannot have them locally. We need a change of culture in central Government, so that they are more relaxed about people from different political parties having local control, because at the end of the day, that is what local democracy is all about. If people decide that they want a party in power locally that differs from the Government of the day, so be it. That is what local democracy is all about. Central Government should be much more relaxed about that and not try to keep all the power for themselves.
	In my intervention on the hon. Gentleman, I touched on planning. In my part of the world, planning is the most emotive issue, in respect of the power of local authorities, and it is probably the one that exercises people more than any other. I have great sympathy for local councillors, because they are often put in an invidious position. They get the blame for decisions that are nominally taken locally, but they have little responsibility in shaping the outcome, because those decisions are actually made at a higher level, whether it be at the regional or central Government level. Councillors are put in an extremely difficult position. I would like much more power to be given to local government, which does matter to people. People identify with their local authority and their local area, and they respect that institution. We should be much more relaxed about giving local authorities far more power to determine what are clearly local matters.
	No local matter is more important than planning. My constituents are sick to the back teeth of seeing more and more completely unwanted developments going up. Those developments change the nature of the villages, but people feel that they have absolutely no control over the decisions involved. They also feel that the local authority has little control over them. This problem manifests itself in different ways. Sometimes it is about garden developments. I have seen the nature of villages in my constituency change as a result of houses being crammed into every possible part of the village, often in people's gardens. However, local people find that the biggest handicap they face in dealing with the matter is not the local authority, which is often sympathetic to their concerns.
	The problem is often that the sites are designated as brownfield sites, rather than greenfield sites, and that the planning laws are stacked against those who object to the proposals. A local authority might decide that a piece of land forms an important part of the green belt, or that it is of local significance and should be left alone, only to have a planning inspector overrule that decision and put the area into a development plan against the wishes not only of the local people but of the local authority. The land is then developed even though no one in the local area wants that to happen. Such decisions should be made at local level.
	I listened with interest to the intervention by the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby), who was a distinguished local government leader. I certainly respect his experience in these matters, but I am not sure that I entirely agree with the premise of his argument. He suggested that these matters often had to be decided at a higher level because local authorities were full of nimbys and if the decisions were left to them, nothing would ever get built. Perhaps I am simplifying his argument slightly, but that seemed to be the thrust of it. I do not accept his point. If we believe that there is a need for more housing, presumably that need is expressed by local communities themselves. Presumably, people are saying that their daughters, sons and grandchildren cannot find anywhere to live and that more housing is therefore needed. The Government are for ever telling us that we need more housing because all these different categories of people are finding it difficult to get on to the housing ladder. If that is the case, surely local government is just as capable as central Government of responding to those local needs.

Peter Soulsby: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is somewhat simplifying the point that I made earlier. I merely pointed out that the voices that he is talking about are far too easily drowned out by those who wish to oppose housing development in certain areas. I would argue strongly that it is legitimate for central Government to set housing targets to reflect the needs of people throughout the country, and that there needs to be something in between those national targets and the local tendency to say no. I would argue that that makes the case for an effective regional tier in spatial planning.

Philip Davies: I respect the hon. Gentleman's position, but I happen not to agree with him. Those decisions should be taken locally. It is for local people to decide those matters. That is the whole nature of local government.

Andrew George: What I did not go on to say in response to the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby) was that we need to recognise the possible need for outside intervention in some cases involving diversity and discrimination. An example would be the provision of Gypsy and Traveller sites. Does the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) agree that, in cases where there might be perceived discrimination, a local authority should be encouraged to address certain needs or achieve certain targets and, if it failed, it should be required to do so?

Philip Davies: To be perfectly honest, I am not sure that I would, because my experience of things like Gypsy sites is that they are often a menace in local areas. I believe that it is incumbent on local agencies—whether it be the police, local authorities or whatever—to do something about it when these problems arise. Far too often, local authorities feel powerless to do anything about them because—whether they need to or not—they hide behind the fact that they have all these responsibilities that they cannot do anything about. That gives a bad deal to local people and it is not very good for local democracy.
	I think that issues around Gypsy sites are very much local issues that should be dealt with by local authorities. I do not think that it should be farmed out to a central Government who might well be imposing something on local people that they do not want and should not have to put up with. Let us not pussyfoot around this. I know from my experience that some Gypsy sites have caused massive problems to local residents and local businesses, and I think local authorities have a duty to deal with those things. They should not pass them up to anyone else.
	I do not want to speak for long. I just want to touch on regional government because I think this is the issue that is now making people extremely concerned. We now often have local government being trumped by regional government, particularly in relation to planning, where we have seen regional assemblies dictating to local authorities how many houses should be built in their area, which to my mind should be a very local decision. It should have nothing to do with an unelected, unaccountable Government quango, which should not be able to dictate to an elected local authority how many houses should be built in the area. The local authority should decide that, based on the needs of the local community, what it can take and the infrastructure implications. Far too often, these decisions are made and local people feel powerless to do anything about them because of the very nature of regional government.
	We know how unpopular regional government is because, to their credit, the Government offered the people of the north-east a referendum on regional government, and the people of the north-east, who are a very proud people—it is a very proud region, as are Yorkshire and Cornwall—clearly did not want regional government. They made that abundantly clear. It seems to me that the lesson the Government took from the north-east referendum was a perverse one because they seem to have decided that because the people of the north-east did not want an elected regional assembly, they must want an unelected regional assembly. It seems to me that only this Government could come to that particular conclusion based on the result of the referendum. What was abundantly clear to everybody else—apart, it seems, from the Government—was that the people were trying to say that they did not want regional government in any shape or form and that they wanted the powers to be decided at a local level. Regional government has far too much power; it is unelected and unaccountable.
	The Government's late response to all this has been to abolish regional assemblies, which I absolutely and wholeheartedly support. They should never have been set up in the first place, but, to give credit where credit is due, the Government decided to abolish them. What did they then do? Did they give these powers to the local authorities and say, "We realise that regional government is not what people want; it should be decided at a local level"? No. What they did was give these planning powers to regional development agencies.
	It is difficult to think of a worse outcome than regional assemblies, but the Government have managed to stumble across what is perhaps the only one that could be worse. To speak up for regional assemblies, I must say that, at least, they had people on them; they were not elected to that particular role, but they were elected in some form or other—they were probably council leaders and things like that so they had at least some democratic accountability. The Government have actually replaced the regional assemblies with the only body it is possible to think of with even less legitimacy—regional development agencies. The problem is not solved; to my mind, it has got even worse.
	Until we have the courage of our convictions and give these powers to democratically elected people locally, people will always feel that they are powerless to do anything about what is probably the most important thing of all in their local community, which is deciding the level and appropriateness of housing developments in local areas. I think that the Government really have to accept that, whether it be a regional development agency or a regional assembly, people do not want these great regions.
	The RDAs are spending huge quantities of taxpayers' money. Yorkshire Forward, the Yorkshire version, has a budget of something like £330 million a year to spend. Who is it accountable to? Nobody. Who is it elected by? Nobody. If it has any accountability at all, it is to the regional Minister. Therefore, we end up with the terrible situation in which it becomes the personal fiefdom of the regional Minister and pursues their pet projects, which are probably based more on political expediency than on the good of the region as a whole. In the modern day, that is no way to allocate hundreds of millions of pounds of public money.

Peter Soulsby: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful case for the accountability of the regional development agencies, and one that has been accepted on both sides of the House; indeed, it was accepted by the Modernisation Committee when it made the recommendation for Regional Select Committees. The logic of his argument is that he and Members of the other minority parties ought to end their boycott of Regional Select Committees and come and join us in holding regional development agencies to account and filling the accountability gap that certainly exists.

Philip Davies: If the hon. Gentleman thinks the solution is Regional Select Committees, he misunderstands the problem. The problem is that these people are getting huge amounts of money, and it could be done far more democratically. Being hauled over the coals once or twice a year by a Regional Select Committee does not make regional development agencies democratic. That does not fill the democratic deficit. The solution is far more fundamental: to scrap regional government once and for all. Nobody wants it—it is a huge Government quango and bureaucracy. It would be good to have more local power.
	My final point is on funding. Many Members on both sides of the House feel that capping council tax increases denies local accountability. Many take the view that that should be a local decision, and if people want to vote for a council that puts up council tax by 10 per cent., so be it. A council can stand or fall by that decision at the next local election. I have a lot of sympathy for that view of localness.
	However, we cannot forget one important aspect: how things are paid for. My concern about going hell for leather for total localness relates to how local government is paid for. If not everybody pays council tax, there is a democratic problem. People might easily vote for high-spending local authorities knowing they will never have to pick up the tab. The only way to have a free-for-all in which local authorities can put up council tax by as much as they want, is to have a system in which everybody pays something. At least they are then in a position to decide whether they want to vote for the increase. But if council tax is put up, and the people voting for it are not paying it, there is a democratic problem. We should consider how to make local government totally accountable by having everyone contribute something towards it. That would make people much more responsive to what is going on in their local authority.
	I hope the Minister accepts that people are sick to the back teeth of local government not having the powers they want it to have. Central Government interfere far too much in local decisions. Trusting local authorities to make decisions for their local community would be good not just for local areas, but for local government, as it would attract higher-calibre people who felt that their decisions would make a difference, and for central Government, as they would not be interfering in matters they should not be dealing with. They could then concentrate on sorting out the problems they should be dealing with.

Sadiq Khan: Tempting as it is to spend the time responding to the interesting contribution of the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), I will try my best to respond to the 21-page essay, which I read late into this morning, and the 43-minute speech of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George). If there is time, I will then respond to the interesting points made by the hon. Member for Shipley.
	I congratulate the hon. Member for St. Ives on securing the debate. I was pleased that the House's other business finished early, as it allowed the interventions and contributions of other hon. Members to be heard, and it gave him the flexibility to make his speech in a tempered and serious manner. I am pleased that he continues to show a keen interest in matters relating to the balance of powers between central and local government, and that the hon. Member for Shipley and my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby) also contributed to the debate. The enthusiasm of the hon. Member for St. Ives for discussions on this topic knows no bounds, and I was delighted to observe from his request for the debate that his membership of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government had further fuelled his appetite.
	The hon. Gentleman quoted extracts from the Select Committee's recent report on the balance of powers between central and local government. I welcome his work and that of other members of the Committee. As he will know, we published an immediate response to the report. A detailed response will be produced in the not-too-distant future, but he will appreciate that for constitutional reasons none of the comments that I shall make today should be taken as a formal response.
	Let me put into context some of the relationships between local and central Government before dealing with some of the points raised in his "essay", as the hon. Member for St. Ives called it. The Government strongly believe that local authorities are best placed to know what their communities need. I was a councillor for 12 years. I am aware of the work done by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South in this context, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Chris Mole), the Whip, has been a distinguished council leader as well. The Government know of the huge contribution made by local authorities, which is why we have taken unprecedented steps to put much more power into the hands of local government.
	Keen historians will know—as will the hon. Member for St. Ives, who has been a Member of Parliament since 1997—that since that year local authorities have gained significant powers, responsibilities and financial freedoms from central Government to enable further devolution of decision making to local communities. I could not but agree with the opening observation by the hon. Member for Shipley that one of the reasons for central Government's nervous relationship with local authorities might be their different politics. He will recall that one of the justifications given by a former Prime Minister—I am going back four Prime Ministers—for abolishing the Greater London council was her affection for the then leader of the GLC. The hon. Gentleman made a fair point, but I think that even he would have to accept that over the past 12 years an attempt has been made to reverse some of the removal of power that took place during the preceding period.
	Key legislation over the past decade has brought about a new relationship between central and local government and between local government and local people. I shall say more about that shortly. It has led to a marked shift in the culture in local authorities, featuring a much stronger focus on performance management and effective leadership on delivery. In particular—as the hon. Gentleman will know—the 2006 local government White Paper signalled devolution of power from Whitehall to town halls, and from local authorities to local communities in England. It set out ways of giving local authorities and their partners more freedom and powers to meet the needs of their citizens and communities, and to enable those citizens and communities themselves to play their part in bringing about the changes they wanted. The hon. Member for Shipley mentioned some of the key changes produced by the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 following the White Paper.
	The hon. Member for St. Ives spoke of the "control freakery" involved in a referendum that can lead to a negative vote. He will, of course, recall the vote in Wales which led to a Welsh Assembly, the vote in Scotland which led to the Scottish Parliament, and the vote in London which led to a Greater London Assembly and a Mayor of London. It is not always the case that local people vote against the regions in referendums.

Andrew George: The point I was making was that, for example in Scotland, the drive for the establishment of the Scottish Parliament was the result of the constitutional convention which was established there. It was driven from Scotland. I congratulate the Government on what they did in enabling that devolution, but the dynamics of the way it happened were different from those of the north-east referendum.

Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. I am sure he would concede that there was also a Welsh experience and a London experience.
	On the relationship between local and central Government, we cannot escape the issue of finance. In 2007, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government announced the first ever three-year local government finance settlement, which has given local government an extra £8.9 billion in comprehensive spending review 2007 and the flexibility to make longer-term plans and investments. That has been preserved in the recent Budget.
	The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the lack of ring-fencing and the flexibility that local authorities have in relation to the money given to them by central Government. More than £3 billion of funding paid through the completely unring-fenced area-based grant enables local authorities, working with partners, to decide where best to invest their resources in the most effective and efficient routes to deliver local priorities.

Peter Soulsby: My hon. Friend rightly draws attention to the greater certainty that has been given on local government finance and the other measures that have been taken, which I think have been broadly welcomed in local government, but does he not accept that an unhealthily high proportion of local government funding still comes from central Government, and the inevitable feeling is that the person who pays the piper seeks to call the tune?

Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend would have a fair point if the money given to local authorities were ring-fenced and controlled from central Government, who decided how the money was spent. He will be aware of the number of representations that we in central Government receive from citizens complaining about their local authority, which is often of a different political persuasion, not spending money where we would like it spent. Instead, they build up their coffers for a swingeing council tax cut before an election. They do not use it as the Government would prefer. We recognise that we must let go, and let local people choose their local council and local councillors decide how the money is spent.
	We are committed to maximising the flexibility given to local areas through unring-fenced funding with no performance or reporting conditions attached. So Government have already given councils more financial freedom to meet local needs and local priorities, but it is right that we continue to protect council tax payers from excessive increases. The hon. Member for Shipley had huge sympathy for those authorities that complain that they are unable to increase council tax by a disproportionately high figure for fear of being capped. We have no plans to change the current structure of council tax or to introduce a local income tax. To do so would create significant costs and place new burdens on businesses in these tough economic times.
	The hon. Members for St. Ives and for Shipley alluded to the local performance framework. The Government have taken important steps to show a clear commitment to, and recognition of, the important roles that local government and its partners play in delivering services to citizens, through the development and implementation of the new local performance framework. In 2008, we introduced major changes in the way national Government, local authorities and local service providers work in partnership to deliver better services to improve the quality of life for local people. Those changes are all about finding out what local people need most, prioritising those needs and taking action to deliver results. It is about empowering residents and making sure that their needs are the driving force behind change.
	The hon. Member for St. Ives sits on the Select Committee. He referred to the local area agreements, which cover all 152 upper-tier local authorities in England. They recognise that one size does not fit all and that locally delivered services must reflect what it is that local people need most. He will accept that no two agreements are exactly the same, because every area has different needs. I am sure he would welcome the fact that the new comprehensive area assessment, launched in April 2009, will be fair, rigorous and independent. It will help to ensure that local authorities and other service providers deliver the quality of services that local residents need. There will be less bureaucracy for service providers themselves to deal with, which will leave them free to concentrate on delivering results and driving up standards. Up to £185 million has been made available to regional improvement and efficiency partnerships—RIEPs. The hon. Member for Shipley referred to his love for RDAs, but he forgot to refer to his love for RIEPs. They work with local authorities and strategic partners in each region to support improvement and efficiency in the delivery of services. The hon. Member for St. Ives will recognise that in this recession RIEPs and RDAs have played a huge role in helping to rebuild those parts of our country that were not helped in previous recessions. In those days, such was the control from Whitehall that there was not as much connection as there now is with local communities. RIEPs and RDAs have also brought inward investment from Europe and have created other revenue streams that do not come from Whitehall.

Andrew George: I certainly look forward to a day when there is a performance framework set by local government for central Government, so that local government can see whether government is devolved.
	In terms of delivering the devolved settlement and giving powers to local authorities, would the Government be prepared to look at establishing in legislation the European charter of local self-government? Putting that on a statutory basis would demonstrate a real commitment to supporting local government. Also, might it be possible to work with other Departments such as the Department of Health to make sure that the fracture between the NHS, the local community and social care is overcome by locally elected people? I am sure the Government have it in their power to deliver those things.

Sadiq Khan: The problems articulated by the hon. Gentleman are referred to in detail in the Select Committee report. I will not succumb to the temptation to give the Department's response to it, except to say that the report was clear about some of the things we can do to make government more joined up and to ensure that there can be a basis for filling in the gaps to which he has referred. I am sure our formal response will take on board some of the points he has made in the debate, as well as those referred to in the report.
	RIEPs are made up of local authorities—locally elected councillors—working with partners, and they are committed to working together to raise performance collectively. They will work closely with the sector to co-ordinate an analysis of regional improvement and efficiency-capacity building needs.
	I want to talk briefly about regional powers. Multi-area agreements are one of the key tools to enable local authorities, working beyond their traditional boundaries, to deliver key economic outcomes better and faster. Ten partnerships of local authorities have so far signed multi-area agreements, with further negotiations under way.
	The future is relevant not only because of the context of today's debate, but because of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill, which is currently going through this House and which began its life in the House of Lords. Despite the progress we have made over the past 12 years, we recognise there is a need for further reform. Therefore, the White Paper I have referred to was published, which passes real power into the hands of local citizens and communities, giving greater control and influence to more people. Key ways in which this White Paper gives greater substance to councillors' community leadership role include the following: the new duty to promote democracy; extending the duty to involve people in decisions, policies and services to additional agencies and bodies; a new duty to respond to petitions; and creating a new "empowering the frontline taskforce" to look at the role of the public service work force in empowering users and residents. A practical example of how we have encouraged the passing of power into the hands of citizens and communities is the considerable growth of participatory budgeting, which now gives people a say over budgets in at least 55 local area agreement areas—that is 36 per cent. of them. Since 2005, local people—and not just elected councillors—have been given a direct say over how at least £14 million-worth of local public budgets have been spent.

Philip Davies: Could the Minister comment on matters such as local transport? In my constituency, the local residents and the local council want to do something about a congested area, Saltaire roundabout, but they cannot get the funding because it is determined by an unelected regional transport board. Could not these powers be handed down to local authorities, so that local people could have a better say in how money is spent? At the moment, with the regional transport board, they feel that they have no say.

Sadiq Khan: That argument contradicts the point that the hon. Gentleman made in his speech, but local authorities could let go of some of their moneys to local communities and let them decide how to spend it. This is not simply about the local councils bidding for money from the RDAs, the RIEPs, the Government or elsewhere, as they should carry on doing; it is also about local authorities being given record sums from central Government over the past 12 years. Local authorities could let go of some of that money, as it is not ring-fenced, and allow local communities to decide how it is spent. The hon. Gentleman's example demonstrates why local authorities cannot always work by themselves to get the solutions; they will need to work with other local authorities, which is why a regional tier of government might sometimes be one of the solutions to the problems that he highlights.
	I shall not revisit the order of last year; I have read some of the debates in  Hansard and found them interesting. I note the objection of the hon. Member for St. Ives to that order. He will be aware—he referred to this when discussing tomorrow's elections—that Cornwall underwent a major step change when the seven councils were replaced with a single unitary Cornwall council. He made the serious point that, notwithstanding his objection, he wants to ensure that it is a success, and it is important that that is recognised.
	The vision that the hon. Gentleman set out in his essay was for a Cornish regional assembly; he described it as "an ambitious plan". The people of Cornwall clearly feel strongly about certain issues: they believe that Cornwall should act as an exemplar for environmental best practice—the hon. Gentleman mentioned that in his speech; they advocate social justice, with locally focused housing and transport plans; and they want multi-area agreements to be developed. All those issues can be explored further in the context of the new unitary authority, and we stand ready to provide continuing support to achieve success in those areas. As he notes, the advent of a unitary Cornwall marks a jumping-off point for further local empowerment. I agree that it is important that we look towards the future and fully utilising the powers available to the new Cornwall council.
	I have dealt with the points made about the north-east referendum. The hon. Gentleman also referred to the agents of vision within central Government. I hope that he will accept that over the past 12 years there has been a genuine attempt by this Government to give more power away. He will see that, notwithstanding the imperfections that any Bill has, the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill is another example of devolving power to the citizen and turning what were previously subjects into active citizens who have more control over their communities.
	I have a problem with the hon. Member for Shipley, which is that when I was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Leader of the House I found myself agreeing with him far too often for the liking of any Labour Member. He began his contribution by discussing some of the tensions between central and local government when two different political parties are involved, and I could not help but agree. He also demanded that there be more power for local authorities, which surprised me, bearing in mind the fact that his party voted against giving that Bill, which will give such power to those authorities, a Second Reading. I hope that he will be on the Committee and will support the Bill there. He also referred to development on brownfield sites, and that also caused me concern because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South reminded me, one cannot have it both ways and be against development on greenfield and brownfield land—development must take place somewhere.
	On the point that the hon. Member for Shipley made about Gypsy sites, he was in danger of confusing unauthorised encampments and developments with authorised Traveller and Gypsy sites. The hon. Member for St. Ives, in a very responsible way, talked about the need for more authorised sites, because the more authorised sites there are, there less likely there are to be tensions between the settled communities and those Travellers and Gypsies who live on the unauthorised encampments or developments. He accepted the role that regional tiers could play in easing some of the tensions between local authorities that might not want an authorised Traveller or Gypsy site on their patch.
	In conclusion, I would say that a great deal has been done to get the balance right between central and local government. I forgot to mention the question raised by the hon. Member for St. Ives about the Henry Spink Foundation. There are national standards of care. I was at a meeting today in relation to a social care Green Paper, and the hon. Gentleman referred to the Sustainable Communities Act 2007. May I take this subject away and write to him to deal specifically with the points that he raised? I will refer to  Hansard to ensure that I get the point right, and I will get back to him.
	The Government have already given a lot to local government, including greater financial freedom and stability and a drastic reduction in the number of indicators, targets and assessments. We have established a clearer, more transparent relationship between central and local government, allowing policy development through co-design. Long may this continue.
	We are at a crucial stage of our relationship. The economic times we face will test us all, but local government and its partners need to grasp this chance and the opportunities that we have given them to show us—and, most importantly, local residents—what they can achieve by working closely together.
	I hope that through the matters I have outlined in my speech, I have enabled the hon. Member for St. Ives to agree that the Government have done a lot to devolve powers to local areas, including Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this Adjournment debate and on his interest in this important area.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 House adjourned.